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Author Topic: The project begins  (Read 10829 times)

Florida Cracker

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The project begins
« on: September 18, 2007, 08:35:55 PM »
I pulled the head off one of my ST1's yesterday...amazing how quickly they come apart. The cylinder had surface rust on one area and the piston is locked tight.  I soaked it with WD-40 (only thing I had at the time). I used a honer to see how deep the rust had eaten into the cylinder. I believe it will hone out smooth, but won't know until I convince the piston to come out. Will prabably have to unbolt the connecting rod and remove the cylinder with the piston still siezed in it. Maybe with a little soaking, heating, and tapping I can get it out. I hate to have to purchase a new cylinder assy. but if I have to I will. I will pull the head off the other ST1 and see how it looks. I am sure it is worse because it was sitting for years without an air cleaner. I will take pictures of the process...there aren't many to look at on the web. Plenty of pics of the water cooled units, but not air cooled.
Don

mkdutchman

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 08:45:08 PM »
I'll be following your project with some interest

Posting pics is so easy, post lots of them :)

gpkull

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 02:55:59 AM »
cracker dont give up hope you may soak  and get freed up. be easy when prying rings from stuck grooves. chances are you can run with min. damage to the pocket.

listeroidsusa1

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 03:15:22 AM »
Soak it with light oil and let it sit a few days. I had a caterpillar D13000 (a huge engine) that was stuck. I filled the cylinders with oil and machined a plug to replace the injector. A grease fitting was fitted to the plug and a few days later a hand operated grease gun easily unstuck the engine. After a couple of revolutions I was able to turn it and disassemble the engine. The grease gun works great. It forces lube around the piston and can generate up to 10K lbs pressure, yet is easily controllable. Not much can resist. As the borg said,"Resistance is futile"

mobile_bob

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2007, 06:43:04 AM »
there is an odd thing i learned years ago

water is the enemy of an engine cylinder for sure,, but once the piston is rusted tight
it can be a welcome friend as well.

if you simply add some clean water on top of the piston and let it set overnight, it will soften the rust
and you can carefully work the crank back and forth and work it free.

this lesson was taught to me by an old timer junk yard guy, that had unstuck many a rusted engine in this manner.

it works,, :)

if you fill the rusted cylinder with water,, and let it sit for a while you will find the rust will soften to the point that some scotchbrite
or a scouring pad will remove the vast majority of the rust.

this is one of the nice things about good cast iron,, the rust generally only goes so deep and quits,, the outer rusted layer protects the good metal underneath

give it a try, you got nothing to loose

the grease gun method will move the piston as well, but if it is rusted very tight you may break ring lands or pop the top of the piston crown

a 5 inch piston has many sqare inches of area,, about 19 inches or so and if you apply 10k psi, you have available 190,000 lbs of force on the piston
something will move for sure,, but if it is not the piston in whole,, you may end up breaking parts if it is rusted very tight.

i would fill it with water,, scour out all the rust above the piston you can, and let it sit over night,, and then work it back and forth till free


bob g
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Florida Cracker

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 01:49:42 PM »
Thanks for the good advise. The generator is also siezed so I was unable to turn the crankshaft so I could get the con. rod nuts off. I will have to disconnect the direct drive generator...at a later date.  I removed the head off the other ST1 that has the belt driven generator and there was actually less rust in it and I was able to free it up  :). I was actually wanting to get this one running because the generator is in better shape and is belt driven. I thought the cylinder would be in worse shape due to not having an air cleaner on it but luckily the valves were in the closed position. I took the side cover off and checked the governor...seems to be in good shape and the counterweights move freely.

rosietheriviter

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 03:53:19 AM »
there is an odd thing i learned years ago
if you simply add some clean water on top of the piston and let it set overnight, it will soften the rust
and you can carefully work the crank back and forth and work it free.
this lesson was taught to me by an old timer junk yard guy, that had unstuck many a rusted engine in this manner.
bob g

Hi bob,

Some of the engines I worked on in my younger days had "rust siezed" engines.  Daddy always told me to add #2 fuel oil "diesel" and allow them to soak.

Water should be just as good, I would think, but the oil could be allowed to remain for nearly as long as you would like with no adverse effects.

I personally think water is a good solution for many problems.  When washing parts, soap and water are one of the very best cleaners.

Rosie
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quickies

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 10:55:57 AM »
Dear FC,

If you need a gasket set for your project please have a look at my web site
www.e-gaskets.co.uk

Have sent sets to Canada and Australia, but not USA.

Kind regards,

Geoff

Florida Cracker

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 04:35:58 PM »
I have the cylinder honed and I believe it will be OK to use. The engine turnes over easily and all valves, oil pump, and injector moves freely. I was surprised to see the little differences between the 2 engines. The return lines are plumbed differently, valve cover is different, cylinder fins are a little different, governor system,...lots of little things. I quess like anything else, things change from one year/model to the next.

dieselgman

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 09:40:04 PM »
Don,

We've built a lot of the ST engines in Alaska over the years, and dealt with a lot of them that were left out in the weeds and weather.

We have found that the bigger problems with water entering the top of the engine are with losing valve seats to pitting and the like. Cylinders are not that expensive and I've removed many of them by pulling the rod along with it as you suggested. With the assembly off the block you can use a large wooden block and sledge hammer to force the piston out of the cylinder (through the bottom of the bore rather than the top where the worst rust is concentrated). If you want some cost effective replacement parts options you should check us out.

Best Regards,

Gary gsj@gci.net
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Thomas

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »
I have had good luck using brake flued it seems to work were nothing else will. Tom T

hotater

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2008, 12:16:43 AM »
Water that has been boiled on high heat for a few minutes will penetrate hard rust better than any oil or solvent known to man.  It's an old gunsmiths trick that works.  Rust melts away and releases it's 'hold'.
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M61hops

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2008, 09:59:18 AM »
Water that has been boiled on high heat for a few minutes will penetrate hard rust better than any oil or solvent known to man. It's an old gunsmiths trick that works. Rust melts away and releases it's 'hold'.
I'm curious about how this works; do you pour the water on the rusted parts while it's still boiling hot?  Does the tempeture change help split the parts apart?  If you let the water cool down before you pour it on the rust what does boiling the water do that helps disolve the rust?  Thanks for the information!  Leland
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oliver90owner

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2008, 12:57:53 PM »
Leland,

Reading Hotater's post I can see why you might be confused.  Pure water will not change however long or 'hard' you might boil it.  It will simply evaporate if allowed.

Yes, I believe the (differential) expansion of parts is part of the trick.

Other than that normal hard water might be slightly less concentrated when it had cooled down after being boiled vigorously, dependant on whether it was permanent or temporary hardness. If it was just temporary hardness it (the hardness) would now be insoluble.   Any other dissolved compounds would tend to dilute the water, as well, if they remained in solution.

Hope this helps to understand Hotater's post , but I have never seen melted rust.  I have no idea of it's melting point (m.p.) - but it is an ionic compound, I would think, and as such will have a very high m.p., far in excess of 373 K.

Rust is insoluble in water.

Just the fact that at times it works, easier on small items (as you can dunk them several times in boiling and then in cold water) is enough for it to be tried as one alternative to brute force with a sledge hammer!

A hydraulic press left with the pressure on for a period of time is also a good method.  I have tried them all, over the years, (and quite a few others) but the sledge hammer approach usually suffices to break the seal and allow further cleaning and final extraction.

Regards, RAB

rbodell

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Re: The project begins
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 03:14:39 PM »


Rust is insoluble in water.



Back when I used to commercial fish in Florida, we often had fishing pliers pliers that would get rusty to the point they wouldn't work any more. No amount of oil would free them up. We would just throw them in a bucket of salt water for an hour and then start working them back and forth. In a few minutes they would be as good as new. Then we would wash them off in fresh water and oil them and they would be fine. I don't know if it was just water or salt water, but penetrating oil and diesel fuel wouldn't touch the rust.
The shear depth of my shallowness is perplexing yet morbidly interesting. Bob 2007