Author Topic: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?  (Read 8477 times)

Ian

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Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« on: September 09, 2007, 07:00:58 PM »
I have managed to get hold of a 3 phase STC 7.5 kW alternator. Unfortunately the manual is in "Chinglish". I guess the original Chinese characters have been put through an automatic translator. Below is a portion of the Chinglish text - concerning the wiring diagram and harmonic / elementary wave / excitation coils.

Whilst I think I can get the gist of the text, I am not sure I really understand what is being said. I wondered if any of you good fellows may be up to the challenge and see if you can put it into a more understandable form of English ?

My queries are....
1. What is an elemantary wave coil and what does it do ?
2. Why have THREE harmonic windings feeding ONE field coil ?
3. Why is only ONE of the harmonic coils connected to the "elemantary wave coils" ?
4. Why / how does the elementary wave coil only effect the UNLOADED voltage ?
5. Why have elemantary wave coils when there is a "field rheostat" fitted which should adjust the output voltage ?

Here is the Chinglish text...

The wiring principle chart is shown as in Fig 1.

In the diagram the Z4 Z5 and Z6 Z7 as for the elementary wave coil of the auxiliary winding of the difference turns. Both can reach to adjust unloaded voltage purpose vis change over right and reverses series connecting plate. The unloaded voltage rises when the Z4 Z6 connect to the Z7-Z8 . When the Z4 Z7 connect to the z6 z8 the unloaded voltage goes down. When the z4 connect to  the  z8 or the  z6 z7  connect  to  the  z5 z8 that the two elemenbeve wave coil will be used separately. The connecting plate has been connected afotre delivering. According to the needs  of the  users  it  can  be  changed  to  connect  elementary coil as above method.



STC-3KW-20KW   STC-30KW -50KW
Fig 1 wiring principle chart
1. Main winding   2. Harmonic coil of the auxiliary
3. Field rheostat   4. Elementary wave coil of the auxiliary winding
5. Silicon-controlled rectifier   6. Excitation winding
7. Winding of indicator   8. lndicator   9. Voltmeter


Regards,
Ian

Doug

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 05:42:53 AM »
Wow.

Reminds me the field stripping directions for my SKS.....

I'd like to help you but I'd need the machine in front of me and some time.
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rcavictim

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2007, 09:53:27 AM »
I understand you questions.  I understand that the unit will function in either supplied wiring configuration according tho the factory notes, but that it functions `differently` and the schematic in #2 looks like it makes more sense to me.

Is there any reason you cannot run this thing as supplied?

I note that there is no electrolytic storage cap on the output of the 3-phase rectifier.  This may be why it needs three field windings, or it may simply need 3 field windings because it has 3 output windings. My knowledge leans more to electronics than electrical so I am no expert on motors and alternators/generators.  BTW, adding an electrolytic cap might help output waveform if this is a problem.  Try a value as small as ~50 uF to begin with.

edit to admit personal imperfection.   :D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 10:38:57 AM by rcavictim »
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listerLD19

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 10:30:01 AM »
my friend had a manual for an imported kids size motor bike with a chainsaw size motor

it said bizarre things like

in case of dung hills in the carbureter


it seems the chinese need to have experienced foriegn engineers overseeing the factories for best results


carlb23

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2007, 05:20:23 PM »
Wow.

Reminds me the field stripping directions for my SKS.....

I'd like to help you but I'd need the machine in front of me and some time.

Doug,

"SKS" I thought you were in Canada?

Doug

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 06:29:48 PM »
Yes I am in Canada.

Norinco must use the same tranlation services as "Dung hills in your carb" lol.

There are no laws in Canada preventing people from owning sporting arms.
There are reasonable rules like fire aquisition certificates ( to keep the crazies and crooks from leagaly buying fire arms ).
There are laws about registration that people ignor. Its realy non of the goverments buisness what I own. I keep my fire arms locked and stored safely ( trigger locked, in a steel cabnet and in a non functional state ). And if by some chance someone broke into my home and spent several hours trying to find and remove them I can and wil provide the police with the serial numbers ( and bolts and recievers that I don't store with the guns lol ).

The most important thing about responsible people living in a civil society is to disobey laws that are stupid, ineffective and unenforcable.
The minnut you start behaving like sheep then you get a guy like Mr. " just watch me in power " over stepping the bounds of goverments authority in a blind attempt to serve their interpretation of what is in the best interest of the public good......

That much said if someone does brake into my home in the midle of the night ( and I stand a better chance of being hit by a car or satlite ). I supose I could easily pound some stupid into him with an inuit soap stone carving. I still live in a moderatelty rational and cival society
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carlb23

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Re: Anyone speak Chinglish ?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 09:59:09 PM »
I purchased my SKS about 20 years ago and have only taken it to the range about six times.  Fun to shoot but you can go through a lot of ammo in a hurry. I keep my collection in a large gun safe so they better bring a Oxygen Acetylene set with them if they want to get at mine.

Doug

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 06:01:44 AM »
It is what it is, cheap.....

The bush here is so thick you can't see far, the SKS is nice in heavy brush for deer, and you won;t cry if your scratch it up.

The sticker on the end is nice too, never used it as intended but I did cook on it once lol.

I used to buy amop by the crate, realy cheap ball amo. My uncle would open up the new stuff and load a little better powder and a quality bullet. Still no highly accurat but very inexpensive to shoot.

My Enfield on the other hand is every bit a better gun, but costs a lot more to shoot.

Doug 
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Ian

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 07:51:26 AM »
Any thoughts on the tranlation ? (Anyone?)

I am afraid I am still looking to answer the questions....

My queries are....
1. What is an elemantary wave coil and what does it do ?
2. Why have THREE harmonic windings feeding ONE field coil ?
3. Why is only ONE of the harmonic coils connected to the "elemantary wave coils" ?
4. Why / how does the elementary wave coil only effect the UNLOADED voltage ?
5. Why have elemantary wave coils when there is a "field rheostat" fitted which should adjust the output voltage ?

Anyone ?

Yes, the alternator CAN be run as-is out of the box but I am just not internally programmed like that! I want to know what is going on and if adjustments are possible I want to know about them. I feel uncomfortable running something that I do not understand. If I just ran it as-is, then I can guarantee that every minute it was running my mind would be thinking it could be optimised better and until I can prove that this is or is not the case, I will be unable to put it out of my mind. (So please help a lost cause soul out with your view of how he can fiddle and tweak with the tools the manufacturer provided for the purpose!)

Regards,
Ian

rcavictim

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2007, 08:55:52 AM »
Ian,

Well I certainly won`t stand in the way of a mind crying out for understanding.  I exibit such curiosity as well.  Heck that is how I learned most of what I now know that serves me well.
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-Want Lister 6/1
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Poweroid

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2007, 10:45:57 AM »
Hello Ian,
I do not own the type of alternator in question so I can only offer my opinion.
1) The output of the "elementary wave coil" will have a series characteristic ie; output proportional to speed not load.
The tappings can be configured to work together to add excitation or against to subtract. If you are uncertain about experimental altering of the tappings, then use a short length of covered fuse wire between the terminal post and cables during test of output.
If you run the machine with Z6, Z7 open circuit, bring the speed up slowly with a volt meter on Z6, Z7 just as a precaution incase of a high unloaded voltage being formed, only as an insulation breakdown issue if damp.
2) The three "harmonic" windings have a parallel characteristic ie; output proportional to stator current load. One for each phase as the machine may not have a balanced load applied.
3) Any of the three windings could have be used in design. It is common to use U (Red as was in UK) as this is often used as the common unbalanced phase of choice to supply small single phase auxillary loads (control gear ect) and so is best to be the regulated phase no load with this type of alternator excitation.
4) As in 1.
5) As in 1 also,The field rheostat is just a trimmer for fine no load volt adjustment which can be replaced by a diverter type AVR for better regulation, say 1% ish as opposed to 5% ish without.
Also note the voltmeter is connected to V and W. U is not commonly used as a voltage "reference phase" again because of 3.
Charles.

rcavictim

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 11:17:08 AM »
Poweroid,

Thank you for this very helpful information.  Welcome to the forums!

BTW, perhaps you can answer one of life`s other great mysteries.  Why do the Chinese go to all the trouble to include a stand alone winding who`s only apparent (to me) purpose in life is to light the pilot lamp bulb?  You see this winding on all the single phase ST heads as well.  This is labelled `(7) winding of indicator` in the posted schematics.
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-Changfa 1115
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Poweroid

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2007, 02:20:18 PM »
rcavictim,
Thank you for your welcome to the forum.
I can only hazard a guess as to the purpose of the light bulb winding. Maybe it's only an excitation indicator.
If memory still serves correctly? Early Honda alternators were also equiped with a lamp winding. The light would dim for a second or so when a load was applied.
Charles.

Ian

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 08:10:23 PM »
Poweroid - many, many thanks for your superb explanation / opinion. I really like the idea of testing with fuse wire in place (I had not thought of that).

Now for my further education, can I please ask another question or two....(I thought I understood the basics of power generation and the ST alternator but clearly I am not as good as I thought I was!) ?

1. I understand from your explanation that the output of the elementary wave coil is proportional to speed rather than load. Clearly the harmonic winding(s) are also proportional to speed rather than load but at rated speed I believe that the harmonic winding(s) react to the load in the stator (output) coils and regulate (within a range) the voltage available to the field winding. So how are the windings between the elementary wave coil(s) and the harmonic windings physically different ? (I am afraid my little brain cell would have expected windings on the stator to react in a similar way and I do not understand how the windings can be organised differently so that they react in a different way). Any attempt at an explanation would be very welcome.

2. The diagram in the original post shows 2 different wiring schemes. the one on the left is for the smaller machines (3 - 20 kW) and the one on the right is for 30 - 50 kW. What would be the rationale for different schemas because of the greater power outputs ? (Note that on the low power single phase machines (ST alternators) the field rheostat is typically placed on the DC side of the bridge rectifier [like the high power STC 3 phase wiring diagram] - so why change it to the AC side for the low power 3 phase STC alternator?)

3. It seems that all the adjustment is for "no-load" voltage regulation. Is there a simple way to regulate variable load voltages ?

Regards,
Ian

Poweroid

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Re: Anyone speekee Chinglish ?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 11:20:53 AM »

Hello Ian,
I apologise if I have caused confusion with my first post. 1) The output of the "elementary wave coil" will have a series characteristic ie; output proportional to speed not load. I should have said stator voltage not speed.
I will attempt to answer your question 1. by imagining an alternator as being a "rotating transformer" with two primary windings supplied from different sources and one secondary. The secondary output will be a function of the summation of the primary.
I may be creating more questions than answers here, so I suggest it may help if you digest the info at this link first; http://canteach.candu.org/library/20030801.pdf 
2. Don't know, would only be guessing.
3. Not too sure of question. Another excitation method at fixed speed or Variable load at different speeds?
Charles.