Head Gaskets

[Dail R H]

   I keep seeing references to problems with head gaskets,weeping water,leakingect. All sorts of fixes for the goobered up sort of stuff that comes with our beloved engines.Question is,why doesn't someone try- use annealed copper gaskets.? Any good reasons not to?
   Don't want to start something,just asking 'cause I don't know.

[hotater]

Because the amount of protrusion of the liner varies from engine to engine the gaskets would have to be fitted.   Annealed copper is a good idea, but the work best on a flat deck.

[Doug]

That felow from NZ sugests milling the liner and deck flat the milling a further .005 from the liner only to ensure a good seal. Sounds like a good simple way of fixing things provided of course you are willing to get everything machined and milled flat as required....

Doug

[jimdunne]

Danger Will Robinson, danger...

If you read http://utterpower.com/kit_engine2.htm , you will understand far better the relationship between the cylnder liner, head, and cylinder.

The previous reporter has it all wrong!!!

When a Listeroid cylinder liner is found to project more than 0.010” or so above the surface of the cylinder casting, then there may an issue with getting a head gasket to seal. This has been reported on many times.

DANGER, DANGER!!!!

[Doug]

Ya I ment to get back and edit that, sorry.

What the fellow in Z land does is mill the block without the liner after so it protrudes the .005 or so.....

http://www.veglisteroidnz.co.nz/veglisteroidnz/listeroid.html

From Craig's site.

" I also machined the barrell face and liner so the liner had .003" protustion not the .010" it had , if you have to much liner protustion the head gasket will seal on fire ring and stop compression leaking in to water but will leak water out water holes between head gasket and side of head. "

I like this way of doing things because if you spend the time a a little money you can square up everything if needed and no worry about the original Indian machining. Generaly set up time is longer than the actual machine work so anything faster and easier will be cheaper.

Doug

[hotater]

As one of the first to study and write of liner protrusion problems and solutions, let me chip in.

Original Lister CS engines had no liner and the piston top comes level with the deck.

Listeroids have a liner that sits in the block on an interior 'ledge' machined in the block.

SOME Listeroids have liners that protrude TOO FAR above the block.  (Mine was .032").
IF the liner sticks up too far, the head is pulled down like a skull cap over the protruding liner.  Headgaskes leak water and soon blow out, usually near the coolant exhaust/exhaust valve area.

The liner is a GOOD thing...and cheap.  They're easy to face to proper dimension on auto machine shop equipment.

"Proper protrusion" is said to be .005 to .010 inch.  Mine is .003 and working perfectly.

To test for proper protrusion--  Remove the liner by pushing it out from the bottom.  A drill press works well.
Remove the O-ring and clean the block and liner REALLY well.   Wash, dry, wipe, blow, wipe again.
Put spacers under the bottom of the block and lower the liner into the block.  Rotate it and make SURE it's not got a bit of grit stuck on the mating ledges.

Lay a straight edge across the liner and use the feeler gauge to measure the gap between straight-edge and the top of the block in several places.   If the spaces are DIFFERENT, it's the perfect excuse to grind it true.   Aim for .005 plus or minus .002 and you'll be fine.
   Remember this figure.  Its' the SAME MEASUREMENT as what the top of the piston will be BELOW the straight edge when the block is assembled and torqued and the piston at TDC.

IF its' out of spec---   Have an auto machine shop grind the proper amount off the top of the liner.  It's best done IN THE BLOCK so it'll be parrallel with the top of the block.  (don't count on ANYthing being square, just make sure the top is 'flat' so the head seats properly.)

The liner CAN be turned in a lathe with a dummy block to support the bottom chuck support area, but be prepared to chase out of square, out of level and just plain terrible machining surfaces and geometry for a LONG time.  Both ends of the block and the bore sometimes have little in common and takes a lot of set-up time to correct.  Without the block corrections being done FIRST, the liner is nearly impossible to set up successfully on the lathe.

The SECRET is in the cleaning before measuring.   Measure until the readings are the same.

[jimdunne]

Thank you hotater,
You sound like a chap whose head is screwed on properly, and dos not mislead people. Thank you!

[Quinnf]

Jim,

You got that right.  Hotater's one cool frood who really knows where his towel is at!

With regard to the aforementioned web site down under, there are a number of things written there that are, shall we say, controversial.  One of them being the categorical statement, "You must have a radiator and thermostat to control water temp, a thermal siphon set up does not work, if it does not very well, if it was such a great system then we would still have big water tanks on the fronts of our cars but we do not so it must not be very efficient."  That's a statement that belies the author's lack of experience.  As others have said, tread carefully.

Quinn

[Doug]

Still seems like a very reasonable way to correct liner issue and square up a deck to the cylinder.

There is also the shimming with brass stock method as you discribe Quin.

lastly there is the over looked point that Craig has modified the engines with a higher compression ratio and run hotter to try and get a better veg oil burn and more power. This may be a tipping point on some engines that forces the need for a waterpump, rad and presurized cooling.

I having spoken with the man I am impressed with his ideas, many I want to try on my Petteroid.

[oliver90owner]

Guys (and Gals).

If there is a problem with liner protrusion, that is one thing.  Hotator seems to have that sorted/covered.

Now, if there are other problems (as well?), each will need to be addressed in a sensible order.  No point in machining cyliner top to be parallel with bottom if it is the bottom end where the fault lies! No point in changing top face angle if liner seat is not addressed also. Etc,etc.

Re-iterating - there may be different things in need of correction; each case should be considered from an engineering point of view to find the best logical solution, without changing other design parameters.

Regards, RAB

[Quinnf]

. . . like a box of chocolates; you don't know what you'll get.   

Quinn

[Doug]

Pass the box please.....

[Robin]

I had a problem with the headgasket of my chinese Shunde single cylinder diesel. the original headgasket was a 3-layer one that soon lost its torque when it got wet inside. I tried first to replace the multilayer gasket with a solid annealed copper gasket. The protrusion of cylinder sleeve was too big (0.1mm), resulting coolant leak outside cylinder block.
I did not want to strip the whole engine to have it machined flat. What I did was, I re used the solid copper seal I made, but reshaped it to look like an X with a circle on it. (I do not now how to attach pictures.) The head bolt holes are in the X ends, the circle being the flame ring. The result was a much smaller gasket than the head/block overall diameter.
The coolant seal is made of same thickness Flexitallic 511, which is a PTFE seal with melting point around 340 degrees centigrade. It completely surrounds the copper flame ring and head. I only had to cut the coolant passages and the form of the flame ring off it. I re-annealed the old copper gasket, installed it hot, with coolant seal allready placed, and torgued the head again.
I have not seen similar solutions here, maybe this will help others too.