Author Topic: Power Factor  (Read 19200 times)

Ian

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Power Factor
« on: August 30, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »
I am out of my depth and am seeking some knowledgeable input please.

My grid tie setup takes the AC output of my single phase 230v 50 Hz ST alternator and full wave rectifies it in a bank of home made bridge rectifiers in parallel – all mounted on a massive heat sink. The resultant DC output is fed into the input stages of a 6 kW grid tie inverter, which houses something like 200,000 microfarad of electrolytic capacitors.

My query is about “power factor” and its correction. If I were to connect the alternator AC output directly to a capacitive load, I would expect to see the voltage and current waveform out of phase with each other. However, in my scenario the capacitors are effectively seeing only DC (albeit quite heavily rippled) so there is no phase to be out of alignment. However, current flow will be highest when capacitor voltage is lowest, and least when the capacitor voltage is highest – which is pretty close to what could be a DC equivalent of “power factor”.

So what is the generator actually seeing ? As I view it, the only thing the generator sees is the bank of diodes (a slight resistance) in the full wave rectifiers and what might be regarded as a variable load (dependent upon voltage).

So, is the generator seeing a capacitive load ? (I think so). If the generator IS seeing a capacitive load, is there any benefit in introducing inductors to make life a little easier for the generator and reduce losses ? If yes, where should the inductors go ? (On the AC side or on the rippled DC side)?

If the addition of inductors would be helpful, how would I go about calculating the inductance to add and what would the result be ? As I said, I am out of my depth, so if there is anyone out there who may be able to make any sense of these ramblings, and would feel able to point me in the right direction, then a bit more information will undoubtedly be necessary. I think I have covered the majority of the likely needed information below….

Alternator = ST 7.5 kVA wired as 230 volts 50 Hz at 1500 rpm. The windings have a static resistance of less than 1 ohm. The alternator is actually run at 1800 rpm with a measured AC rms figure of about 280 - 300 volts. The measured current is about 17 amps when the grid tie inverter is squirting about 4 kW into the grid continuously.

Rectification = 4 x 1000 volt 35 amp bridge rectifier diodes wired in parallel. In use, the heat sink gets only slightly warm. The unloaded voltage can go as high as about 430 volts DC. When under load, the measured DC voltage drops back to around 265 volts DC as measured by a digital multimeter; of course the voltage will be rippled but I do not have a scope to see what the ripple waveform looks like.

Grid tie inverter = 6 kW SMA Sunny Mini Central with about 20 x 10,000 microfard capacitors at the DC end. There appear to be some heavy current inductors on the motherboard input stages but I cannot tell what their inductance is; they consist of about 20 turns of very thick (4 -5 mm diameter) enamelled copper wire on an approx 50 mm diameter ferrite ring. Neither the inductors or the capacitors appear to get unduly warm in continuous use.

Any comments from anyone who understands what may be going on ?

Regards,
Ian

Doug

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 05:16:12 PM »
Well I am not an expert in electronics but I have observed that electronics can create a lag effect by gating SCRs for example late. This I understand because the effect of gating late has the exact same effect on the bus as an inductive load.

I have also seen inductive dc loads draw reactive power from the bus threw electronics that normaly don't create much a  of a PF shift on their own ( for example a dc motor will draw re4active power threw a bridge, but a resistiver load is neutral threw the same bridge ). This I also understand

I have also observed wierd things I don't fully understand with respect to capacitive loads and power electronics. These do under some conditions cause bus over volts like a capacitive load but I have never scoped them to see exactly what is going on....
The bank of caps do suply some reactive power to the bus/gen but this is a gray area for me.


I wouldn't add or try and change things on your sunny boy. If they offer line or load side reactors for some reason or the Tech guys say do this or that to its fine, but the risk for being creative on your own is the possibility of letting the magic smoke out of the little black boxes....

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Ian

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 05:29:29 PM »
Doug – thanks for your welcome input. Can I invite you to expand a little more – even if it is to share experiences ?

I guess I should have mentioned that the grid tie hook-up is not something that SMA would be happy with. They have already told me straight that it will never work. (Well, I am happy with this quality level of “not working” but want to see if I can improve on it). As it is there is no guarantee with the SMA unit so very little to lose.

The SMA Sunny Mini Central is designed for use with DC from photovoltaic solar (PV) panels only. PV panels produce lots of current at quite stable voltages with no ripple. The inverter uses MPP (maximum power point) tracking to get the most power from the source so the load is constantly hunting to find the best point.

So my setup is most definitely “Home Brew” that just happens to work. How can I improve on it ?

Regards,
Ian

Doug

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 05:45:58 PM »
I can't realy explain things in greater detail because I don't have the engineering background to fully explain or understand all that goes on in power electronics.

I observe and try to know and understand what is normal so I can trouble shoot and repair what is not.

I also hate electronics.....

Doug

I repair industrial electric drives and controls. Generaly these things seem to be designed by people in places like Sweden and I suspect the designers are inmates of a mad house high above the tree line....
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SCOTT

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 06:03:35 PM »
icrowther

I will chime in here about using rectified ac to power the Sunnyboy3800/3300, per their specs ripple should be not more than 10%, your inverter may be different.  I have measured the ripple after a 35a 1000v IR rectifier and it was in the neighborhood of 30+%.   I have talked to the techs at SB in the US several times and they did not say why but were insistant that the ripple not be above their limits.  I assume the life of the SB will be shorter if it is subjected to above limit ripple levels.

Scott
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Ian

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 06:16:36 PM »
Scott - thanks for that.

I find SMA a very opaque company to get to grips with. Its a pity they seem to have the best (in my opinion) grid tie inverters in the marketplace. They can answer questions like "what colour is the gangle pin?" but when asked to give an opinion or view outside of the normal window the answer is usually useless. But I guess we have created this letigious society so we have to live with its implications; product liability laws and insurance cover mean that no-one is allowed to have an enquiring mind anymore and even a full blown "blame" disclaimer is regarded as "unreasonable".

Yep, you are right. The SMC has a quoted ripple current of no more than 10% and I am pretty sure (as you have confirmed) I am supplying more than that.

I assume the max ripple current is to protect the capacitors from overheating but I do not know.

I know it is easy to take a thread off at a tangent so if anyone else out there has a view as regard to power factor or reducing the capacitive effects, I would be glad to hear from them.

Regards,
Ian

mike90045

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 08:08:35 PM »
Some questions for you

1) What is the part # of the diodes   ie: 1N5828  (15A , 40V, .5Vf)  MBR20200CTG

A SCHOTTKY style diode will reduce losses, by having a lower forward voltage, and help create a better DC waveform. Getting a 800V part looks problematic though.
some additional info:
http://www.vishay.com/company/press/releases/2004/041117rectifiers/



2) Capacitors you are using - Have you tried Low ESR style, they will reduce ripple better/faster than other styles.
     Less ripple into the inverter will save it's caps, which are designed to supply the peak surges it must put out to feed the grid.

mobile_bob

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2007, 10:01:36 PM »
what you describe inside your grid tie unit is a buck converter or possibly a buck/boost converter
and as such it probably will not last long without clean low ripple DC being fed to it.

if it has mppt in it, it will have either the buck or buck boost converter within it, and those converters
use big cap's and inductors such as you describe.

the company engineers are likely not going to be of much help, not only are they concerned with the life of the unit
but the liability involved with somebody doing something outside the design parameters that might lead to not only failure
but fire or personal injury.

they i am sure are insured for specific exposures predicated on the original design, if they advise you to alter those parameters
they do so at the risk of haveing their insurance carrier kicking them to the curb if someone gets hurt, killed or burns down their house.

and there is the concern that some modification might defeat the safety grid disconnect and get a lineman killed.

i wouldn't want to help you alter the design parameters either, and if the spec's say solar panel only, i am surprised they didn't hang up
on you when they found out what you are trying to do.

the liability for them is just too high.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

carlb23

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 12:23:22 AM »
I was thinking along the same lines using a grid tie inverter.  At present we have 7kw of solar using two sharp 3500 watt inverters and i am turning a 4kva Indian head with my 6/1.  I was thinking of using a large DC motor at 180 volts to power a separate grid tie inverter. Did you ever think of just using a DC motor and do away with the with converting ac to dc?

gpkull

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 03:59:33 AM »
power factors need more than the basics that you havent explored yet. there are many more variables involved with making your own let olone trying to grid tie . you will spend bokoo bucks to incorporate your little gen set up to try to feed power to the kings. the bs aint worth it .  15k gen .5 gph enough to run the housse and then some. the .5 gph  is on the slim side maybe  more maybe less. you still cant make it and  transmit it as cheap as they can. every little bit helps but one can only do so much

Jim Mc

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 04:31:24 AM »
Let me see if I got this right.  Your question basically is “can I add some inductors to the circuit to make life easier for the generator by correcting the power factor”?

Probably not.

The way I look at it the basic problem here is you’re operating a single phase AC source into a full wave rectifier with a capacitor input filter.  This configuration results in high peak current in the AC side.  This is because current does not flow during the entire cycle.  It only flows during the portion of the cycle during which the AC sine wave exceeds the DC voltage on the filter capacitor.  This causes unwanted heating in the AC side,  rectifiers, and filter capacitors.  Reducing the value of the capacitor in the filters as much as possible helps a bit.

Inductor-input filters can help.  They will increase the conduction angle of the rectifiers, but reduce the DC voltage, and inductors in this current range tend to be big, heavy, and expensive.

The best solution is to find a 3-phase ST head.  Please do some basic Googling on rectifier circuits, and the advantages of full wave 3 phase rectifiers will be apparent.

I would not describe the load the generator sees as ‘capacitive’ as much as I’d say it’s nonlinear.  Being nonlinear, conventional power factor correction techniques don’t apply.

Having said all this, I’m not sure there’s huge increases in efficiency to be gained here.  Three phase sources are nice, as they allow a different type of efficiency – a smaller machine can deliver power equivalent to a larger single phase machine.  But as far as converting more mechanical power to DC electrical power, I doubt you’re throwing away that much now…

Non-linear or not, RMS current is RMS current.  So, if you have a true RMS ammeter, you can measure the stator current, and see if you're operating the stator within it's specified limit.  If your ammeter isn't true RMS, don't waste your time...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:38:21 AM by Jim Mc »

Doug

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 05:30:27 AM »
I recall a Yaskawa drive back around 7 years ago that gave me a lot of grief.

DC bus over volt was the fault and the machine shut down. Turned out too many harmonics on the line side were the cause. Could the Suny Boy also has an issue with bus over volts if they see too much riple?

Doug
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mike90045

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 07:06:53 AM »
I was thinking along the same lines using a grid tie inverter.  At present we have 7kw of solar using two sharp 3500 watt inverters and i am turning a 4kva Indian head with my 6/1.  I was thinking of using a large DC motor at 180 volts to power a separate grid tie inverter. Did you ever think of just using a DC motor and do away with the with converting ac to dc?

On the solar board I frequent, I've tried to find a solution to this dilemma, 4.5KW of idle PV on my roof, and my fridge is getting warm.   The grid tie inverters need several minutes of ultra clean grid power, to start up, a UL safety factor.
 Once started, they try to pump up the grid voltage (only way to really push power to the grid) and if there is not a huge grid to accept the load, they over-voltage @ 255VAC, and shut down.

Best bet is to use your PV to spin a large DC motor, to drive the ST.

Ian

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 09:37:13 AM »
mike90045,

Many thanks for your input. The diodes are already built into a diode bridge and packaged as MB3510 units. I have 4 of these bridge rectifier units in parallel on the same heatsink to share the current load . I have measured the individual forward voltage drops and they are all pretty close to 720mV. So at 1.44V drop with a current of 17 amps = 25 watts which I am happy with and the heatsink can eat for breakfast. I get maybe a 5 degree C (10 F) temperature rise above ambient in continuous use.

The capacitors are all built in to the input sections of the grid tie inverter motherboard - but if anyone knows where I can pick up a load of low cost 10,000 microfarad 600V high ripple current electrolytics I will be happy to add in up to an extra farad's worth!

I do not have any PV panels connected to THIS inverter; it just services the output from the ST head only. I guess I am lucky that I have a good grid supply (maybe 1 power cut per year for an hour, maybe less) and it is easily able to sink a few kW on my phase without raising the voltage by more than 2V or so.

Any other input and suggestions welcome.

Regards,
Ian

Ian

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Re: Power Factor
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 09:49:52 AM »
mobile bob, thanks too for your input.

Could you please help me out and describe in a bit more detail what a "buck/boost converter" is and how it works (I am fairly technically aware but am not an electronics guru) ?

Just to make sure we are talking the same thing... I am not seeking ANY advice on modifying the SMA inverter at all. I agree there are safety issues for the grid and have zero plans to modify this part. However, I am looking to see if I can do anything to improve the DC power going into the inverter and making it easier for my ST alternator to drive it.

Also, just for the record, I am an SMA installer with access to the "installer mode" features via the password. Even playing around with these settings will not counter the "Grid Guard" safety features; for that you need to have signed yet another disclaimer and use yet a different password.

With regard to the tech support guys hanging up, well, they kinda did - in a polite sort of way. They said it would not work and that the SMC is designed for PV paels only. They also said that if I did what I planned to do, it would invalidate the warranty. (But one of the (better) tech support guys said that it would probably work even though he had never done it but he could not offer any advice on how to configure the inverter for optimum output).

Regards,
Ian