Author Topic: Auto or Manual transfer switches  (Read 30672 times)

schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 03:31:34 PM »
   Have you heard anything Yet???

solarguy

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 07:30:10 PM »
We will probably have to be patient to find out the true outcome.

Keep in mind this is a state sanctioned monopoly.  Even routine things seem to take a long time.  Anything out of the ordinary will probably take longer.

Of course, this could be the exception, in which case we'd all be really happy.

Good luck and have fun!

troy

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 07:24:22 PM »
Hi Schoust,
No word yet, but I didn't expect to hear anything this soon.  I did leave an email message today with her to see if she had any high level feedback or questions. 

Not sure how this will really play out but I wanted to add one more thing about the engineer I'm working with.  I think she really understands this stuff.  During our phone conversation she said that most of the voltage and frequency control requirements are intended to protect me and my equipment more than it protects the utility.  If I tried to start a synchronous generator out of phase with the grid, I would probably blow my generator, possibly hurt myself or others around me, but not hurt the grid.   

She closed by stating that the safety of utility workers when the grid is down is a real concern.  An induction system that does not generate energy when the grid is down is a good thing.  I consider this evidence of her understanding the benefits of the system under proposal.   

That being said, her pragmatism might not be a factor in the approval decision.  Sure she get's it, but if this type of induction generating system is considered a variance against code, it could easily be shot down from a bureaucratic perspective without any recourse.  The law is the law, point of view.

All we can do is wait and see. 

I'll keep you all informed.
Steve




Doug

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2006, 03:19:50 AM »
Once I started reaching for cable termination in a 13.8 kv switch I thought was dead and issolated. Turns out power feed back from another source and it was hot.
I got lucky because I had no ladder and was feeling lazy that day ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Long pause eh?
So did I.

I can live with the rules regarding induction generators.

Doug

GuyFawkes

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2006, 03:48:40 AM »
I always like the laser warning


“Do Not Look Into Laser With Remaining Eye”
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Doug

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2006, 06:38:16 PM »
Here's one I made up after miss laid scaling bar impailed the back rest of the land cruiser I was backing into a drift....

"A scaling bar in the hands of an idiot is called a spear"

But seriously why make traps for people by trying to cut corners or save a buck?
I woudn't want to hurt a utillity worker by charging a line he's trying to isolate.

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2006, 04:21:37 AM »
Hi All,
      Just got thinking about this induction generator setup and all of the "complaining" about why you shouldn't need all of the safties that syncronous generators need.  So, you've all decided to have no capacitors in your system and that's fine.  But any load you or your neighbours have with a postive power factor could be a problem.  I know some UPS's were really bad (?good?) for their leading pf.

The other consideration is that utilities often use large capacitor banks to improve the voltage near the ends of long lines.  There may infact be one on your section of the line.  If the circuit supplying this is opened, the capactior bank in your section of the line could continue to supply VARs to your generator, causing you to liven a section of line that would otherwise be dead.  This is why you still need over/under volt/frequency relays.

I'll be interested in seeing what the engineer has to say.

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2006, 05:23:39 AM »
All,
Here's what the engineer said.  The email is pretty long so I'll summarize.

1) Will there be an Visible open disconnect switch?   The answer is yes.

2) Exactly how / where is the intertie made in relation to your service panel?  Branch panel from Service Panel to garage.  Visible open disconnect switch will be outside on the garage.

3) Meter -  this will need to be replaced with a bi-directional meter.  Takes 4 to 6 weeks

4)Protection -  Just so you are aware, we do have a recloser with one fast trip on it and these typically have a 3 second time delay for reclose, however it may be faster than that.  Therefore you have the responsibility to ensure that your induction machine really will trip and be gone from the grid by the time we reclose.  We do not take any responsibility for damage to your equipment if it does not respond quickly enough.

I hadn't thought about a fast recloser.  My presumption is that a magnetic switch would definitely open if the grid is down for 1 second or more.  The only time this might be an issue if grid capacitor banks and or a ups allows the generator to keep providing power for a few seconds while the grid is down.  This would hold the magnetic relay closed.  That could be very bad when the grid comes back on line.

5) Voltage -  I notice your motor / generator is rated at 230 volts.  Typically these will have a =/- 10% range.  But just so you are aware, it is very likely that our system voltage would run on the higher end of our acceptable limit in that area since we feed this from our Oak Park substation across the river.  You may experience voltages in the 250 volt range.   Just wanted you to be aware in case this higher voltage would be a problem for your machine. 

I've got a Killawatt and it indicates my voltage is 119V per leg.  Would 250V on the grid cause a problem for this system?

6) Neighbors and fluctuations from your machine:

If my system causes flicker issues at my neighbors home, and they complain.  I am financially responsible to have a seperate transformer installed to isolate my home from the neighbors.  That could be expensive!


Trigzy (Steve),
Well I hadn't thought about a UPS or capacitor banks, that could be trouble. 

I look forward to hearing from others.

Thanks,
Steve





schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2006, 02:25:03 PM »
   Hmmmmm this gets more and more complicated as we go, I have not thought of Ups and and or capacitor banks.As far a the transaformer goes I believe that would sink my project :(   Anyone have any idea how much a transformer costs??
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 02:26:53 PM by schoust »

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2006, 02:40:40 PM »
I'm going to ask the engineer about transformer costs when I respond.  But remember your neighbors have to complain about it first.  But then you're sunk.

I'll keep you posted.

schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 05:52:42 PM »
   I live way out in the sticks, I wonder if it would have the same affect as in a more populated area?I still think this can be done and all this talk about problems is just a lot of what ifs.WW1 Props has been doing this for a while and I do not believe he has had any issues at all and all he uses is a Mag. starter......

Doug

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2006, 07:14:07 PM »
Personaly I don't think the Capacitance of local grid will be high enough to excite an induction generator. Even if we were to barke the rules and use a run Capacitor in the AUX winding, there still all that inductive load of pole transformers and line compensation not to mention the appliances left on in all your neighbors homes.

Unless everyone on your block tried the samething that is.......

Doug

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2006, 08:25:12 PM »
Hi Doug,
Are you saying that the inductance load would be so much greater than any spurious capacitance load that it would be overwhelmed and not be a factor? 

What about a personal UPS being connected when the grid goes down?  My understanding is that a UPS does not provide energy to the home wiring, just to the PC and peripheral equipment that is plugged into it.  But could there be capacitance in a UPS that would keep an induction generator online for a few seconds after the grid goes down? Or again, is this overwhelmed by the inductance on the line?

No one on my block is net-metering. Heck, no one in my town and up and down the river for 7 miles each way is net-metering according to the engineer.

Any thoughts on the voltage concern?  Potentially 250V on the line while the generator is only producing 230V?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 08:30:13 PM by pigseye »

Doug

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2006, 03:21:33 AM »
Yup thats my gut feeling but that doesn't mean I'm right.
All power lines are compensated to some degree or other because of capacitance to ground with inductors and in some cases with series capacitors. This with all the dead load on the line would in my opinion swamp out most induction generators but there is always the chance......


Doug

schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2006, 12:43:36 PM »
  In this case I still believe the Utility is reaching for a worst case situation, I'm with Doug on this one but I'm no expert by any means..........