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Author Topic: Auto or Manual transfer switches  (Read 30670 times)

T19

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Auto or Manual transfer switches
« on: November 30, 2005, 04:16:27 AM »
Been looking into the "rest of the Story" and find that to do this right you need a transfer swtich that transfers power to your panel and stops backfeeding back into your utility (if it is a backup)

In Ontario they are deploying smart meters, and will allow you to reverse run your meter to ZERO.  So You could run your generator durring the day, while the rates are high, and at night use hydro, like batteries.  So you get credit for high rates, and use low lates... it would take about 3 hours running /day to keep the bill to Zero.

ANyone have any expericance with this stuff?  Or are we all offgrid or backup guys?

Cheers

rocket

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2005, 04:39:24 AM »
i have a switch box to go from electric company to generator, but have not looked into reversing meters. i think that running the generator during the day during high loads and then switching to the power company at night when useage is very low makes the genset last longer, allows for maintenance, and is alot cheaper than an inverter and batteries

Stan

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2005, 11:40:28 PM »
Note to T19...Although I live in BC, I'd bet the biggest hurdle you'd face would be the same as here.  It's the rules & regs that'll kill you, negate your house insurance etc. etc. etc.
Stan

T19

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 04:22:11 AM »
Oh yes, Canadians just love red tape!!!!!

Ontario Hydro havea simple process to follow.... you call them, they come out, give you a list of to-do's, install new meter (and bill you about $300)

As for insurance, I have pointed out that this backup genset will save the insurance company money next power failures and the sump pump does not flood the basement, or the house is not damaged by frost burst water pipes.  I'm putting the genset in a separate shed, away from the house just in case.  Buy running it frequently I am insuring that it is in good working order

The insurance company sees this as an atempt too lessen my damages and thier exposure.  I guess its just in how you sell it.

If I told them I was doing this to save money.... they would have wanted some too!!!  Screw that, they take enough as it is

Bansonyankee

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 07:52:15 PM »
In the People's Republic of Massachusetts (sorry, my politics are showing...) it is legal to utilize "net metering".  That means one can use electricity whenever you want, generate at any level you like and whenever you want, and you only get billed for the NET amount you use (presumably zero or close) at the end of the month.  So the utility is functioning as a huge battery, so to speak...

This is allowable (1) up to 60 kW (no problem for Listeriod-heads) (2) in accordance with the utilities interconnection guidelines and (3) with appropriate metering. 

So, that's what I'm going to do.  I'll utilize a common 5 hp, 3-phase motor (my shop has a 3 phase, 208 volt service) as an induction generator, running slightly over synchronous speed (i.e. 1835 rpm, as opposed to 1765 rpm as a motor).  I'll just advance the governor knob until my ammeter indicates nearly fulll load amps on the motor and awaaaaay we go.  No hassles with synchronizing, voltage control, etc., etc.  I have a motor starter we'll use as a contactor. 

The interconnection will require the following protection:  Under/over voltage (IEEE symbol 81O/U), under frequency (IEEE 27) and reverse power (IEEE 32).  All of which I have here in the shop in various places.   

Wish me luck...

JS

hotater

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 09:36:31 PM »
Bansonyankee--

(Sorry I'm a Southerner and can't help it....are you any kin to that damnyankee my Grandad was always cussin' ?)

You said it right about the Peoples Repub. of Mass....I'm betting you find that out in fulfilling the letter of the #2 'requirements'.
    I'm just guessing, but by the time you pay for things like  transfer switches, safety items,  union electricians, and Peoples Bureau of Inspections, it may take ninety years of making bio fuel to pay for the trouble.

  I hope not...that's the way it shouldwork.  In a system like that it seems the small generator guy should have the hook-up expenses subsidised to encourage the practice.

    In Idaho, the power company hooks into your generator (hundreds of small hydros in the state) and feeds your electricity into their grid through a meter.  They pay you wholesale for the power ($.043 last I heard) and charge you retail ($.08 or so) for what you take from them.   I know of three places that generate considerably more power than they use but still owe money at the end of the month.   It has something to do with a 'grant of monoply' to Idaho Power...they OWN all the hydro rights in the state even though the water is yours.  The canal companies have generators on the big irrigation canals but the farmers pumping from the canal buys power from Idaho Power instead of the canal company.

   The place where I am has rights to generate power from up to 17.37 cubic feet a minute from Shoshone Creek.  NO problem!  That's enough to run a circus!   But wait---

You can't use the first 5 cubic feet per second in the creek.  That water belongs to fish habitat and to cattle watering rights further downstream that's reserved by the BLM.  The creek only flows FOUR cfs in an average year.  So, the hydroelectric rights that are part of the property aren't usable in a practical way at all.....and not enough sun, not enough wind, too far to drive for WVO.  The fuel company delivers.  Diesel it is.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

binnie

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2006, 04:40:32 AM »
Hi T19, Andrew.
I live in Que. Laurentiens on the Rouge River not too far from Ottawa, and have just ordered a 12/2 Listeroid and 10kw gen. head from John up in your area for delivery in the Spring. The delivery to his place should be in Feb. but he will give it the once over and I am not ready with my shed cleanout till early spring. Nice guy and seems to know his stuff. I did ask him about selling back to Hydro...but he said when he checked into it the hassels were not worth what they would pay. I haven't checked any further with Hydro Que. It may be different with Ontario Hydro.
His friend & neighbour "Ernie" has a very impressive WVO set up with a 12/2 runing full time and is off grid for the last 6months. His inovations on the cooling system & using the exhaust system to heat hot water in a heat exchanger that also serves as a muffler system is mindblowing. You must see that set up. It blew me away. There are picts of it on Geo. B's CD. He has also fabricated a very nice, removable guard for the flywheels that presented a danger for the dogs tail. The dog sleeps in the genshed next to the Listeroid.
I am buying the system as a back up with potential for the future for my country house & love your idea of using Hydro as a battery pack for night time use. I have been looking at the cogen stuff too...but that is down the road. The lister installation is my project for this Summer.
Let us know what you decide & thanks for the idea. I will check it out. Binnie

 
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

GerryH

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2006, 04:22:14 PM »
You gotta be careful of the CSA police. Hydro won't like your electricity unless it is generated from an approved device. Oh, BTW, any motor or generator that has been rewound is no longer certified, but the Liberals are gonna fix that after the next election. 'Scuse me, I gotta go register my guns.

Gerry

lister-deaf

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2006, 02:33:20 AM »
Semi-Automatic - If you have a manual start generator this unit is for you. The semi-automatic comes with the same voltage monitoring and safety equipment as the automatic but does not come with ability to start the generator.

Automatic - If you have an auto-start generator this transfer switch is for you. The automatic comes with the ability to start the generator, monitor voltage, communication capability, and the same excellent safety features.

http://electromn.com/pdf/LI124.pdf
« Last Edit: April 22, 2006, 02:40:14 AM by lister-deaf »

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 11:30:36 PM »
I've submitted a net-meter request in WI to use an induction generator without voltage and frequency controls since these parameters don't change with an induction generator.  It will be set up so that when the grid goes down, the generator goes offline and will not auto start when the grid is back up (mag starter relay).

The submission was sent in this weekend and the engineer is going to get back to me on it's approvability.

I'll keep everyone posted
Steve

schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2006, 12:42:29 AM »
   Pigseye I am about to make the same request in Ct. but I have been told that they may want all the same protection as a reguler gen.set.which means big bucks,more than the darn Listeroid.Keep us posted because if they let you fly I would like a copy of your submitals and your Utiliy reply if you don't mind.I don't think I need all the things that they say I do,the only thing is how do I convince them?

chug

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2006, 05:10:25 AM »
I checked into net metering here in michigan with consumers power.  I need a special two way electronic meter that measures power both ways and a meter on the generator.  I have to buy the two meters for around $1500.00 :o  I can buy alot of batteries and invertors for that or another Lister.  Let us know how you come out with the induction moter idea.

solarguy

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2006, 06:47:42 PM »
Many utilities are so geared to large industrial stuff they become pretty insensitive to the needs of the little guy.  And never forget, they are monopolies, and essentially get "free" money, so they don't bat an eye at some expensive gizmo that they feel is necessary, even marginally.  Their customer base is captive, so what are you going to do about it if they make it hard???

Alternatively, many many utilities actively suppress the little guy because they don't like competition and/or think it is completely useless to make an extra 10kw with green energy.

finest regards,

troy

schoust

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2006, 08:20:11 PM »
   Troy, well put,that is exactly what I fear is the case here in ct. I even asked a guy who works for the utility the question and he just laughed as if I was full of you know what.My reply to him was just because I am not an electrician dosn't mean I can't do this............. ;D

pigseye

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Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2006, 06:37:28 PM »
Hi Schoust,
I'll keep you and everyone else informed on the outcome.  I received a voicemail from the engineer and she said she received my proposal and would look it over next week.  I really don't know what to expect and if it does get approved as is, it will be because of her understanding of induction generation versus the systems ability to meet every legal/technical detail of the requirements. 

What I don't understand is if my state really supported distributed generation (maybe they don't), why would they require all the controls of a synchronous generator on an induction generation system.  Induction generation is inherently safer when the grid goes down that all the other concerns seem trivial in comparison.  If they require all the controls of a synchronous generator, there would be no reason to consider induction generation. 

Seems bass-ackwards to me, if liability is such a concern.
Steve