Author Topic: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings  (Read 28221 times)

snail

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2007, 03:06:49 AM »
Quote
shall i?

nah!!!

Please feel free! ;D
It's been a bit quiet on the forum and there's bugger all on TV..... ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,

Brian

olice

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2007, 05:39:36 AM »
  what if guy left the group again? less foul language, arguments, name calling,  endless spewing of useless foul mouthed stories and once upon a times. huh, i would not miss it.  this kind of stuff follows him  anywhere he goes and he does this on every forum he logs onto. he's just looking a argument,  so  how about some useful info. from rational sober people  instead.   olice  in texas 
2.5, 6, 8 stover
4hp fuller and johnson
3, 10hp fairbanks
5,6,7,1.75 hp economy
lailang 12.6 hp diesel
chanfa type 6.6 hp
wanted listeroid

mobile_bob

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2007, 06:09:00 AM »
i would like to submit the following

a cold engine that is breathing in cold air is compounded by the injection of fuel
fuel has a certain latent heat and has a tendancy to refrigerate the air even more so.

according to detroit,, (back in the old days) when they had a fuel shutdown cable
instead of an ignition activated fuel rack solenoid the said to pull the rack closed (no fuel)
and crank the engine over several revolutions to build heat in the cylinder
and then slowly release the rack to add fuel,,, it helped a bunch to start them when it was
below zero F.

while i have never tried it on a lister/oid, i have tried it on a 12 hp changfa
and it does make the engine start faster and easier, but both the detroits and my changfa are
electric start and not hand cranked,,

i would not want to hand crank a lister several compression strokes to build heat!
but i would think that i would probably try to limit the fuel rack on a cold engine to reduce
the amount of injected fuel.

also it would stand to reason that a faster cranking speed would aid in starting for a couple of reasons
1. the compression will be higher, less loss past the rings
2. the amount of time that the heat of compression is reduced and leaves less time to lose this hard earned
heat to the cold cast iron.

but the problem is a handcranked engine gets more difficult to turn over when it is cold,, so cranking speed is going to be
an issue for the vast majority of folks.

as for motorcycle steering,, i had to learn that the hard way,, my first bike was a 74 cubic inch wide glide
and i never road one up till after i bought that one,, you learn quick what would seem intuitive is not reality on
a machine that outweighs one by a factor or 4 or 5.

i don't know anything about free electron's or for that matter enslaved electron's,, so i will defer to those who know.

from a practical standpoint,, if i were to do something to aid starting a handcranked engine it wouldn't be the admission of anything like
a starting fluid, misted gasoline or anything that might cause a kickback and a broken or disjointed arm.

what i might do or would suggest is the addition of..

1. a tank type heater,,, as suggested in the cooling system to preheat the water jacket,, i would think a 750 watt model like they
install in the heater hose circuit of cars and trucks would be sufficient... paying attention to thermosiphon principles
several minutes of that probably would help alot. or

2. cummins years ago had a glow plug that was made by champion spark plug,, from the outside it looked like a 7/8 hex ford plug,
but had a coil about an inch long instead of the normal electrodes, these were used with a  diesel injector that sprayed fuel over it with
a hand pump sort of their version of a flame start.. i don't think a flame start is necessary,, but those heaters made alot of heat
enough for a 855cu/in engine to start below zero with flame start,, but likely enough heat for a liter 6/1...
they were very tough and put up with alot of abuse. i suspect they are still available from cummins or someone.

in any event i would try reducing the fuel rack on cranking and see how this helped in starting,, then depending on the ambient temps
and what i had to work with,, maybe either or both of these other methods.

interestingly enough,, the non clorinated brakecleaners make a decent starting fluid that does not bark and knock, but rather provide just a bit of
help in starter motor driven engines, and is by far safer on engine components than ether... although i have not tried it on a lister/oid.

one last thing,, and i don't know why it works
on my changfa r195m  12hp engine
if i leave the compression release partially engaged to where the valve leaks a bit, the engine seems to build heat and start much faster
again i have no idea why, but it seems to work.

anyway i am late to you guys party,, but thought i would throw in my two cents worth.

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2007, 06:40:47 AM »

725F? thats it??
A heater can to that, no compression required.
 
AH I nice little calculator shows up while I'm typing, might answer this question.  let us look.  Maybe the "King James murdering" teacher will show us how to work it.



aye, met your type many a time, you've got the pseudo plausible techo babble worked out, hell, it must sound good to your ears, I could tell good vietnam / korea war stories, cept there better not be anyone who was actually THERE within earshot, you know...

my original, well used and not within 50k hours of being factory fresh, cs 6/1 start-o-matic with the "inferior" as you guys like to call it indirect injection will nevertheless HAND start at any temperature down to the diesel turning to slush, usual procedure, 3 cranks and whip the handle off, then reach over to trip the decompressor.

meanwhile you'll drone on about direct injection being better for cold starts, heaters in inlet manifolds being better for cold starts, glow plugs being better for cold starts, ether shots being better for cold starts, hairdryers being better for cold starts...

*some* of the people on here get it, they strip and check the spec, actual compression ratios, is everything square, is the machining good, is the assembly good, hotater had one of the worst basket cases of a listeroid going but he turned it into a reliable starter and runner

I don't do "serious" cold, not if I can avoid it, but I can show you places in scandinavia where they use arctic diesel, which is good to -40 / - 44 celcuis, and at those temperature even the sound of metal changes, goes all tinny, cold viscous lube oil makes cranking anything from 1.2 times harder at just "cold" to 2.5 times harder at "bloody cold" and one of the old timers tricks was ladle the oil out of the lister / dynamo job, put it in a pan over the stove / heater until it got hot, tip it back into the lister and crank her up, bitch started, no fancy aids or heaters or direct injection, then proceeded to warm / start everything else on the barge up... my lasting memory was learning that a wooden starting handle grip can get cold enough to take your skin off when you let go, I guess you have to live there to start to really understand the cold, they used to call me "aaargh" cos that's the sound I'd make every time a door opened or I had to go outside and do something, crazy finns.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

clytle374

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2007, 04:52:03 PM »
I thought the temp being achieved able with a heater would ring a bell with someone that a intake heater would help in starting a engine.
I won't argue a ID vs IDI, its all compromise.  Our roid is the only DI diesel we have.  Cars and tractors are IDI, and wish the roid was.
I could guess about "your type" but I'll refrain as little is known about us from our posts.

I was watching this post for ideas on starting a cold engine, If I really need it to run and it's severe cold a helping backup plans would be a good idea.  And it can't be a line powered option, as that would be why I really need it.   I interjected as I was hoping for a good intake heating idea, and I'm sure that my posts didn't put it back on track. Sorry everyone, my argument was mathematical and will leave it at that. 

I've been busy building a roid house.  The math so far is:
The air density change: From  -18C to 37C you have 83% of the air density.  More latter.  Or someone with time want to solve it?

Andre Blanchard

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 05:52:51 PM »
Nothing says a tank heater has to use electricty.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=MY8vAAAAEBAJ&dq=4192274
______________
Andre' B

rcavictim

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 07:34:30 PM »
I won't argue a ID vs IDI, its all compromise.  Our roid is the only DI diesel we have.  Cars and tractors are IDI, and wish the roid was.


clytle,

Exactly what do you find undesireable about your `roid that it is direct injection?  Problems with alternate fuels?    Do you add heat to the injector to improve operation if using heavy viscocity fuel?  How many miles you got on `er?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
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clytle374

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2007, 09:27:52 PM »

clytle,

Exactly what do you find undesireable about your `roid that it is direct injection?  Problems with alternate fuels?    Do you add heat to the injector to improve operation if using heavy viscocity fuel?  How many miles you got on `er?
It's more of what I'm used to,  I'm more sure of alternate fuels on IDI.  Not on alternate fuel yet. Working on getting some thing to harvest and press the crop before I plant it.  Miles on engine: next to none.  Working on the rafters today for the garage/roid home.  Poured the slab 4" with a 48L" X 36W" X 36D" section for the engine.  Just upgraded the electrical entrance to the house to 200A with a transfer switch, waiting on power company to switch over.  The old cloth wire is SCARY.
I do plan to heat the injector/lines on alt fuels, not expecting any trouble.  Might tie the engine into the outdoor boiler, heating the garage and keeping the engine toasty.  Save a little waste heat also. 

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2007, 11:32:32 PM »

725F? thats it??
A heater can to that, no compression required.
 
AH I nice little calculator shows up while I'm typing, might answer this question.  let us look.  Maybe the "King James murdering" teacher will show us how to work it.




I don't do "serious" cold, not if I can avoid it, but I can show you places in scandinavia where they use arctic diesel, which is good to -40 / - 44 celcuis, and at those temperature even the sound of metal changes, goes all tinny, cold viscous lube oil makes cranking anything from 1.2 times harder at just "cold" to 2.5 times harder at "bloody cold" and one of the old timers tricks was ladle the oil out of the lister / dynamo job, put it in a pan over the stove / heater until it got hot, tip it back into the lister and crank her up, bitch started, no fancy aids or heaters or direct injection, then proceeded to warm / start everything else on the barge up... my lasting memory was learning that a wooden starting handle grip can get cold enough to take your skin off when you let go, I guess you have to live there to start to really understand the cold, they used to call me "aaargh" cos that's the sound I'd make every time a door opened or I had to go outside and do something, crazy finns.



I've been above the tree line in and and in places where the north wind is called the siberian express ( and just for the sake of useless info ) GM, Jag and a few other did cold abusive testing.

Diesels run up there.
Of particular interest are the Volvo haulage trucks withe grid heaters so you cant hit them with any sort of starting fluid.
Block heaters work and so do booster packs and synthetic oil.

I carried a pan of charcoal ( disposable BBQ from the grocer ) in my car just incase I wasn't able to plug it in some place. Regualr 5W30 turns to something tar like -40 c.

Seen side glass shatter and windsheidls crack from the shock of a warm garage on a cold car in places north of timmins.

Frozen beards so you can't get a smoke in your mouth.

Coffee frozen before it hits the ground if you toss it up in the air and for that matter, hot coffee too if you didnt; drink it fast enough.

It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Ironworks

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2007, 02:33:28 AM »
I just took a gander at this post.  It reminds me of the old days of the forum.  Good to see things getting back to the way things used to be.  LMAO

mike90045

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2007, 03:52:36 AM »
Nothing says a tank heater has to use electricty.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=MY8vAAAAEBAJ&dq=4192274

But your example does  " A diesel fueled engine coolant heater for vehicles powered by a liquid cooled diesel engine. The heater is adapted to burn diesel fuel ordinarily carried by the vehicle. All electrical components of the system are powered by the vehicle electrical system. The heater supplies a source of thermal energy for engine coolant fluid in order to provide for rapid starting of the vehicle engine in cold temperatures and,"

Blower, flame switch, water pumps, interlock relay circuit....    Not really applicable to a listeroid  ?  Maybe a oil lamp perched under the crankcase ???

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2007, 02:30:08 PM »
Or tin full of charcoal, and hole cut under roids hoem built/frame bed pan to allow the heat to rise would sure help.....

I never tried this but durring the war my grandfather was a mechanic in an open pit mine up here. In winter he said he would mix 10% kerosene into the oil to thin it for cold starting. Once the engines warmed up the Kerosene wold start to flash off so you would have to monitor oil levels carefuly.

Some place I havce some pictures of the old Mack ( B series come to mind down't know if this is right ) trucks with the open cab and chain drive that he worked on ( Giants for the day ). A few of those old trucks served into the late 60 as water carriers would you believe!

Doug
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haganes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2007, 06:21:49 AM »
we had success putting heat trace tape from the injector to the injection pump to the fuel tank.  it is surprising what a little increase in the temperature of the diesel will do for starting.

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horsefly76

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2007, 08:27:29 AM »
 
 Well here is my experience with the diesels that I work with on a daily basis. I'm a mechanic for a rental equipment company.
 
 Prior to that that I was an aviation mechanic for ten years. I have worked on everything from a 2 seat cessna 150 to a Boeing 747-400 until a mass of layoffs forced me into a different field of work.

 Just a bit of background for credit.

 The John Deere & Cummins powered equipment that we have are equipped with intake heaters.
 
 The rest have glow plugs. I put a list of what brands (all diesel's) I play with the most and type of cold starting aid.

 We have had the most problems with the intake heater equipped engines not wanting to start in the cold.   Intake heaters are ok but by the time the warm air makes it's way to the cylinder it has cooled quite a bit.   

 On the other hand the engines with glow plugs start fine. Except the perkins diesels that just plane don't want to start when it's cold.

 Glow plugs right where there needs to be some heat to help things along. 8)   
 
 I don't like or use starting fluid on any engine to get it going. Just the sound a diesel makes when hit with starting fluid makes me shudder. :o

 What I have found to work well is a propane torch blowing into the intake while cranking to get things going on a stubborn engine. It's a bit more btu's than the intake heater can provide ;D

 Much like the hair dryer trick except I don't have to string out 200 ft of drop cord to get to the machine.

Kubota          Glow plug
John Deere    Intake heat
Cummins       Intake heat
Perkins          Glow plug
Deutz           Glow plug
Isuzu            Glow plug
Nissan           Glow plug
Cat               Intake heater

 For that matter I plan on installing a glow plug on my little yanmar clone. I'm not too worried about the metro 6/1 as it is living the garage and it is heated.

 Just my $.02 worth

« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 06:09:19 PM by horsefly76 »
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Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2007, 05:26:35 PM »
Thank you:

I keep dusting off the idea of outing a glow plug directly into the head of the Petteroid, but this would mean drill threw a coolant passage or locating it in the rocker box.

Butane fired flame starter sounds like an option that I am trying make
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