Author Topic: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings  (Read 28213 times)

GuyFawkes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2007, 08:43:40 PM »
OK, I'll bite....

"I say: Sorry, but it is hot air which ignites the fuel-air mix  If it is too cool, ignition will simply not take place."

yeah, but nothing in this contradicts my statement, cold steel is the problem, not the cold air.

you're confusing ambient air with peak compression air.


You then start talking about adiabatic conditions, forget it, in theory only, in practice we're back to that cold steel problem.


Basically you're talking a load of crap theory, when what people need is practical advice, and then you complain about my language.


Every engine has a cranking speed, so it's pointless to talk about anything else, because this (cranking speed) is exactly what everyone who starts an engine actually encounters.

Go below cranking speed and no start, no shit.

At cranking speed you are by definition SUPPOSED to be getting enough compression to cause ignition, if you aren't getting enough compression then SIMPLE LOGIC will tell you that heating the intake air, thus making it less dense, thus LOWERING compression (and trust me, any energy put in by heating is is more than lost by losing that volume of air to compression) ain't gonna cure the problem.

Eventually cranking and heat of compression heats the steel and the engine starts, and dumb people think the heater on the inlet did the job, even though it is producing maybe 100 watts while the starter motor is chucking about 3 kilowatts into the system, most of which is going into compression, to, wait for it, create heat.

A glow plug in the head doesn't heat the air, it works just like a cigarette moved over a cup full of petrol / gasoline, provides a local hot spot of high enough energy to trip the ignition process.

Basically you are also talking complete bollocks when claiming that clearances on a hot engine are pretty close to clearances on a cold engine, this is one of the dumbest claims I've ever heard, and can only come from someone who has never measured anything....

You also talk bollocks about the CS being damaged if run on full load at high compression, there are LOTS of scenarios where this was perfectly acceptable, such as heavier fuels and higher altitudes, a good grade diesel won't knock on a CS with valve in at sea level, but you will sacrifice some mechanical power and get a bit more thermal rejection.

As for "think of the childruuuun" and watching my language, you can kiss my ass, I type as I talk, better more people typed naughty words than people like yourself typing crap and claiming it as fact.

COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINE, so you GOT to get compression, and cold steel is the problem, thanks to coefficients of cubic expansion.

Bullshitting about other stuff that you think you know how to do, in preference to the simple task of rectifying the problem, doesn't rectify the problem, at BEST it may mask it, until more mechanical wear makes it rear it's head again, like e-zee start will start a buggered engine, for a while, then it becomes addicted to e-zee start, then it won't start even if you drip nitro into it, because it is now completely buggered, and what was once a simple proposition to refurbish it now becomes a basket case in need of a total rebuild.

The trouble with the net is, those who don't know, now get to choose between your bullshit and my bad language, and no way to tell which one is right.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2007, 05:18:21 PM »
Smiles and good cheer here, I always enjoy input from Guy and all the other guys here
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

clytle374

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2007, 03:58:16 AM »
So much crap around here, I'll bite too.
OK, I'll bite....

"I say: Sorry, but it is hot air which ignites the fuel-air mix  If it is too cool, ignition will simply not take place."

yeah, but nothing in this contradicts my statement, cold steel is the problem, not the cold air.
Cold steel makes colder air, starting with warmer air means you'll end up with warmer air.  Closer to the ignition point.

(and trust me, any energy put in by heating is is more than lost by losing that volume of air to compression)
I call BS, show your math.


Eventually cranking and heat of compression heats the steel and the engine starts, and dumb people think the heater on the inlet did the job, even though it is producing maybe 100 watts while the starter motor is chucking about 3 kilowatts into the system, most of which is going into compression, to, wait for it, create heat.
Rewrite that sentence sober and I'll go ahead and inform the engineers on some newer engines that they are dumb. 
I'm surprised that heating up metal enough to either. (A: Warm the engine to raise the compression or B: warm the camber) In 2-3 revolutions of the engine doesn't crack or warp something. 

A glow plug in the head doesn't heat the air, it works just like a cigarette moved over a cup full of petrol / gasoline, provides a local hot spot of high enough energy to trip the ignition process.
No it works like a cigarette lighter lightening a cigarette, you should know a cigarette WILL NOT LIGHT GASOLINE.   


Basically you are also talking complete bollocks when claiming that clearances on a hot engine are pretty close to clearances on a cold engine, this is one of the dumbest claims I've ever heard, and can only come from someone who has never measured anything....
Really?  steel piston/bore.  steel is .0006" per 100F so even if the piston was cold and the cylinder didn't shrink with it, then the diffrence between A hot and cold day is .0006".  And you say that causes the problem? 

As for "think of the childruuuun" and watching my language, you can kiss my ass, I type as I talk, better more people typed naughty words than people like yourself typing crap and claiming it as fact.
I wasn't too offended, but how dare someone ask you to follow the forum rules. 
Rule #3 in http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1395.0
I do find your name offensive. 



The trouble with the net is, those who don't know, now get to choose between your bullshit and my bad language, and no way to tell which one is right.
Agreed. With rants like yours i figure things out myself, in peace, without insults, and at least any bad advice is my own.

Cory



oliver90owner

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2007, 07:31:09 AM »
Cory,

Thankyou.
 
I had not considered him being inebriated.  Quite a possibility, I suppose. Alcoholism, they say, is a diseaese but I tend to think not.

I considered it not worthwhile to respond as that poster is clearly self opinionated, rude, crude and unlikely to even consider alternatives to his mistaken methods and ideas.

The part I thought really interesting was the '3 kW' put into the engine by the starter.  I would like to see him hand crank a 2.5 kW generator at full load!!  Never mind.  C'est la vie and all that.

Regards, RAB

haganes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2007, 07:44:59 AM »
i left the heavy construction industry when the old timers left who knew how to get the job done were replaced by the book smart politically correct.  while acknowledging that GuyFawkes could rub the skin off of an alligator, his credientials and abilities are exposed.  he has been there and done it.  i would not say he is always correct, but if he said something i surely would not defecate on his response.  

clytle374 and oliver90owner on the other hand.........i think you need to expose your credentials other than your ability to read text books.
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GuyFawkes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2007, 12:52:44 PM »


The part I thought really interesting was the '3 kW' put into the engine by the starter. 

yeah, really funny, seeing as how I just picked up for a friend a land rover starter, a fairly weedy affair, part number CES241, rated at 1.7 kW continuous and 3.2 kW peak. Small landy has an engine only marginally bigger than a 6/1 in terms of displacement.... but 4 pots so a LOT easier to turn over.

wonder where you think all that power goes in a cold engine?

the oil / bearings don't absorb that much, gen head ain't generating and so ain't abosrbing anything, hmmm, whats left? compression maybe?

what is the by product of compressing a gas? heat maybe?

3 kw is about 4 bhp, and that isn't a very big (small workshop) air compressor, and they are lower compression so less heat than a diesel, but boy do they soon get too hot to touch, think that may be heat of compression too?

some people are born assholes, some study it....
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

clytle374

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2007, 03:25:09 PM »
You can state things in several ways.  I think, I'm sure, Only a idiot would think.  Why must some use the latter?
My qualifications:
High School= Drop out
Collage (electrical engineering technologies) = drop out
political=highly incorrect
CNC machinist, CNC machine repair(mechanical and electronic), and generally messing with anything mechanical since i was 5.
I didn't post anything out of a text book, most was common sense.  That warming the engine up even 100F(diff in hot/cold day) in the time of a few revolutions is not likely. 
That the expansion of warming the air will not lower it's density enough to offset the warmer air.
That the dimensional difference inside a steel engine between a hot and cold day does not account for difference in starting the engine.  Using the difference between a cold engine and a at "OP temp" engine is not correct, since we are talking about stating temps. Again 100F MAX difference.
A person can be very good at something still be wrong about why it works.     
 

wonder where you think all that power goes in a cold engine?

the oil / bearings don't absorb that much, gen head ain't generating and so ain't abosrbing anything, hmmm, whats left? compression maybe?

what is the by product of compressing a gas? heat maybe?

3 kw is about 4 bhp, and that isn't a very big (small workshop) air compressor, and they are lower compression so less heat than a diesel, but boy do they soon get too hot to touch, think that may be heat of compression too?
Yes but after compression there is de-compression, this doesn't happen inside a compressor cylinder. And it takes time to heat up.
If the starter on the rover is getting hot, then you found where the power is going, heating the starter.


Practical real life knowledge of the subject:
Last winter the glow plug relay failed on our tractor.   It would not start at 45F.   But would start at 25F if you replaced the air cleaner with a hairdryer.   

GuyFawkes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2007, 07:00:45 PM »
You talk about basically "common sense" when what you are really talking about is "assumption".

You're doing 40 mph down a straight road on a motorcycle, you want to turn right, which way do you turn the handlebars?

common sense, even from very experienced riders, will say "right"

the correct answer is "left"

motorcycles don't steer by changing the steering geometry and everything else follows suit, motorcycles steer by precessing the flywheel that is the front wheel, and allowing the reaction from that to change the steering geometry.

Just cos something looks like it makes sense doesn't mean you're right.

No amount of any mechanical experience in one field will make you an expert in any other, and your practical tractor glow plug example is a classic.

repeat after me, as many times as required, while slapping yourself in the face to help the lesson sink home.

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION

you cannot build a logical argument upon a basis of correlation with a structure of supposition, that's called bullshitting.

start slapping yourself in the face again, and repeat the following.

COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINE.

got that?

now I can tell FOR A FACT from what you've been saying that you do not understand even the basics of this, so, since your latest reply isn't so insulting, I'll explain in simple terms.

imagine a theoretical cylinder, made of a material that is 100% impervious to gas, is 100% friction free, is 100% super thermal insulator, is 100% super electrical insulator, and has a piston of the same properties, with a 100% perfect gas seal, we can add an equally impossible temperature probe that absorbs zero thermal energy, and a ditto pressure gauge, and a force transducer under the piston.

this 100% theoretical and 100% physically impossible device is your adiabatic cylinder / engine / compressor.

99.999% adiabatic is like being 99.999% not pregnant.

if you look at the (analogue) pressure gauge while you drive the piston up the cylinder you'll see the pressure rise, Boyle / Charles / Dalton et al, did a lot of work on this, and the gas will "heat up" which means the electrons move into higher orbits and thus you get more "energy" and more free electrons.

You will find that for each fuel, diesel in our case, there is a point at which the gas is just energetic enough to ignite the fuel and make it burn progressively, draw a line of the gauge, you'll also find that there is a point at which the gas is just energetic enough to ignite ALL of the fuel simultaneously, and you have an explosion, and you will find that these two lines are, compared to the angle the pointer on the gauge has swept through from atmospheric pressure, very, very, very close together.

COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINE.

repeat our experiment, but move the piston up at twice the speed.

in our THEORETICAL adiabatic engine there is no change in pressures and temperatures, but the time interval between pressure hitting ignition point and explosion point just got cut in half.

COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINE.

the trick is to have JUST ENOUGH compression cranking cold to cause ignition, because you need ALL the headroom you can get in the very small margin to run full load and max RPM without getting to the EXPLOSION point.

In a REAL engine you have the metal engine cylinder, piston and head absorbing free electrons, the slower the compression event duration, the more time there is to absorb them and the harder it is to get ignition. The colder the metal, the more free electrons it will absorb (and alloy absorbs a lot more than cast iron, hence alloy heads etc)

In a REAL engine you have coefficients of thermal expansion, so the slower the compression event the more blowby you get, plus the colder the metal the more blowby you get. The more blowby you get the less compression you get, and the less compression you get the less energetic the gas and less free electrons.

The faster you crank, the less time there is for blowby, and for absorbtion of free electrons, so anything that slows cranking, like a thick cold lube and a cold battery, gives you less compression and less free electrons.

(incidentally, de-compression most certainly DOES happen, big time, inside a compressor, why else do you thing diving compressors are three stage......)


also, you don't have to use heat of compression to heat the whole engine, iron, steel and alloy are not superconductors, it takes TIME for heat energy to flow through them, if it didn't, oxy acetylene cutting wouldn't work, fact is it does, so you CAN heat the few thou at the surface of a cylinder, piston and head, quite significantly..... don't believe me, get a bycicle pump, jam your thumb REAL hard over the end and give it one good fast pump.

only the surface, less than a thou, much much less than a thou, we are talking a square foot of kitchen foil mass of metal, has to be heated in order to raise it's electron / energy, thus creating a much shallower energy slope between it and our compressed and excited gas, this significantly reducing the energy transfer and loss to the gas. It doesn't take much energy, from compression, to flash heat that much metal, but crank slow enough and the heat will have dissipated by the next compression event.

the old rule of thumb was 75% of the energy in a starter motor went into compressing the gas, assuming a well serviced and within spec engine, and 3kw / 4 bhp is really a very very ordinary starter motor power, specced for car engines of about 500 cc per cylinder, not the 1400 of a lister cs 6/1

BTW, lit cigarettes will most definitely ignite gasoline, diesel not, not if it is cold and pooled, gasoline, yes....
==========================

back to your bloody tractor and hairdryer

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION

4 fat bastards stood on the ice on a frozen pond, skinny ten year old kid walks up to them, ice breaks and all five go through.

the straw that broke the camel's back

that one skinny kid and that one straw did not do the trick, in both cases is was so close that it only took a tiny bit to trip over the tipping point into a different state.

the old saying "if it starts from cold there ain't much wrong with it" for a diesel understands all this, there is a VERY NARROW WINDOW of the actual time/duration of the compression event and losses due to blowby and free electron / energy absorbtion, which encompasses everything from just igniting the mixture to exploding it, there is a HUGE area BEFORE that window and a HUGE area AFTER that window, and neither one is any use.

I can cite you actual examples that I have witnessed, of HOT diesel engines that would not start, starting when a fine mist of water from a pressure washer was sprayed over the intake, by YOUR logic I should be claiming that water is what starts a diesel.

"A person can be very good at something still be wrong about why it works.  "

Yeah, but I'm not wrong, cold steel is at the root of starting a diesel, everything, but everything, stems FROM the cold steel, the temperature of the ambient air is irellevant.........

standard diesel needs to be injected into air compressed to a temperature of 725 farenheit / 385 celcius, air at below freezing may SOUND like it puts the starting point further away, but cold air is denser, so you get roundabouts and swings, the real killer for REALLY cold air is when all the moisture has been frozen out of suspension, this very cold, very dry air, is less dense....

people also fuck up looking up the "flash point" of fuels, flash point is where you can get SOME combustion, for an engine to START you need to know the "fire point" of the fuel, which is nothing like the flash point.

so, one more time

COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINE

and

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION

just like turning the motorcycle bars left to go right, the cold steel is all that counts in starting a cold engine.

once you grep this you will never have a problem maintaining and engine in good order and thus starting "on the button"

until you grep this you will always be making excuses about why your engines do not start on the button 100% of the time.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mkdutchman

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2007, 07:49:56 PM »
I'm sort of thinking this thread was started pertainining to methods of starting by heating the inlet air, not sure when it flew off on a tangent.  But FWIW here's an interesting calculator supposed to give you your temperatures in the cylinder after compression, (but don't forget to account for the differing densities of air at different temps)


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/adiab.html#c3

clytle374

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2007, 08:48:39 PM »
Well I'm not writing this since I have burnt myself up smoking around and putting cigarettes out in gasoline soo many times.   Might happen, but I'm talking lottery odds.
I do understand 99% of what you said I think I read that textbook before.   
Who is the one with too muck book knowledge?  I thought every rider knew that you turned the handle right to go left.  But the bike starts to go right until the mass of the bike is too the left then it goes left holding it's balance.  At this point you are turning to the left, if not your turn is tightening.  Now on a sport bike, over ~100MPH.  Left goes left for "feels like a long time" as the gyroscopic forces won't allow the bike to lean.  Answer: left knee extended and weight shift does it.  You can change lanes to the left steering left.  Don't forget how much steering rake affects balance point and this whole topic.

Now aren't we all impressed with my completely irrelevant info?

I don't remember heat being referred to as electron energy, must be a more in depth textbook than I have read.

Your water spray example actually would leave me to believe that water doesn't compress, raising the temp, causing ignition.  But feel free to come up with something out of left field.

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION: No kidding?   

Air compressors use multiple stage too cool the air before compressing it further.  Why?  Ever try compressing all at once?  Too much power required, too much heat inside the compressor.  Where does air decompress inside a compressor?  Not much in the cylinder, that was my point about heat.

Still as proven by engine manufactures warming the intake air will start a diesel, regardless of whether or not it's increasing the compressed temperature through the warming of the metal or raising the starting temperature of the air. 

I would say the your water example and it's conclusion about me is proof that you are more interested in insulting/discrediting others than refuting facts. 
Your conclusion that I have, for a fact, no understanding of the topic yet many paragraphs of correct info with no refuting my main point 
I will not believe that the lower density of the air from being warmed more than offsets the warmer starting point until I do the math my self or you show me yours.


standard diesel needs to be injected into air compressed to a temperature of 725 farenheit / 385 celcius, air at below freezing may SOUND like it puts the starting point further away, but cold air is denser, so you get roundabouts and swings, the real killer for REALLY cold air is when all the moisture has been frozen out of suspension, this very cold, very dry air, is less dense....


725F? thats it??
A heater can to that, no compression required.
 


AH I nice little calculator shows up while I'm typing, might answer this question.  let us look.  Maybe the "King James murdering" teacher will show us how to work it.





« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 09:06:48 PM by clytle374 »

mike90045

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2007, 09:12:24 PM »
Quote
No it works like a cigarette lighter lightening a cigarette, you should know a cigarette WILL NOT LIGHT GASOLINE.


Depends. If you have a deep tank, full of vapor, and hurl a glowing cigarette into it, the reduced oxygen in the tank area snuffs out the cig.  No fire.

If you have a shallow open pan, plenty of O2 in the air and gas vapor coming off the liquid gasoline, you get a *fun*  blast from the same cigarette.


Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2007, 09:56:47 PM »
Actualy a good glow plug will ignite diesel fuel, gasoline, propane, butane and thats just stuff I tried.

Doug
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sid

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2007, 02:23:59 AM »
happy days are here again/// we got another one ton concrete block issue going/ this time it is just starting a diesel/////out of 1422 menbers , most have never started an engine that did not have a rope to pull it or a key to turn it on///we need to give useful information for hand starting to the members that need help//if you need some pratice// stop by and pick and engine and start all you want..one thing for sure.. no 2 engine start the same, it usually takes some time to find the rite combination for each engine// sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
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1 1/2 briggs.etc

mobile_bob

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2007, 02:35:31 AM »
:)


shall i?

nah!!!

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

sid

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2007, 02:38:04 AM »
Bob... jump in with both feet.. that is all that is missing and it will make my day///sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc