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Author Topic: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings  (Read 28226 times)

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 06:49:35 PM »
I have a couple of thoughts.....

Since my Petteroid will need to start in temps as low as -35c ( thats bloody cold in American ), I've decided to thermosiphin the coolant threw an aux heater using a pipe heat exchanger and plan old fassion charcoal to provide the heat.

I made a grid heater out of some glow plugs to provided some warm air for cooler weather starting
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4763268
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4924461
( Note this is the prototype and the current version uses two smaller plugs for more heat.)

Lastly my bed plate will be open on the bottom to allow me to slide a pan of hot coals between the bed plate and foundation blockto provide some direct heat to the underside of the crank case.

There should be enough heat available to thin the oil, warm the block above freezing and warm the air to start under any conditions. I also have electric start.....

I think this and a little time and patients will be all I need.

   

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KellyR

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 04:18:46 AM »
Thanks for the input RAB.  Your discussion of the heat and compression necessary was the information I needed and it helps immensely.  I know gas engines fairly well, having worked on the old air-cooled VWs since I was a teen (a long time ago), but diesels are new to me.  I do know enough about them to know they have no spark plug and gave a buddy of mine a hard time by tellling him I needed to do a tune up on my engine and couldn't find the spark plug. ;)

I still can't justify putting in a pony engine, but perhaps a combination of bigger battery (there's a tiny one there now) and heating things up.

Thanks again.

Kelly

ronsmith

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2007, 05:58:22 PM »
This past winter i started my 22hp changfa by injection propane into the throat of the air intake. As soon as it starts close the propane valve and it should run. i hooked a small propane torch tank close to my intake , ran a rubber hose down to top of air cleaner and mounted a fitting there. hooked the hose on fitting and left it as a permanent installiation.

europachris

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2007, 06:31:44 PM »
I recall I had a bit of a time starting my ChangFa R185 when it was around 50F or so.  I normally leave it stored dry without water, and fill it up with warm/hot tap water prior to running it for excercise (backup generator).  Once last spring I left it full in the cool garage overnight and started it the next morning.  It took several tries with a lot of burps, farts, and smoking (engine, not me).   ;)  Finally it took off on it's own.   The engine has no lack of compression, and otherwise runs very strong and clean.  I'd estimate 50F as about the lower cutoff for starting the engine un-aided.

Chris

rcavictim

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2007, 11:03:19 PM »
This past winter i started my 22hp changfa by injection propane into the throat of the air intake. As soon as it starts close the propane valve and it should run. i hooked a small propane torch tank close to my intake , ran a rubber hose down to top of air cleaner and mounted a fitting there. hooked the hose on fitting and left it as a permanent installiation.

Ron,

I would not have thought that propane would work as a starter fuel.  Propane is not supposed to ignite under the compression ignition idea but according to the boys doing propane fumigation it helps the flamefront of the burning diesel.  If compression is not what lights the propane then at the cold engine temperatures there has to be some slight conflagration (slower than speed of sound flame) exibited by the injected diesel charge.  The existence of the propane must then help make the diesel conflagration an explosion (faster than sound flame).


When the engine first fires with propane assist does it sound overstressed like it is gonna blow the head off?  This will happen if you over fumigate once the engine is running normally.  Secondly, does it fire right away or still laboriously?
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Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2007, 01:57:33 AM »
Butane works too but I'm told it can be hard on the bearings, Gassoline also works if squirted.....

Started the 3rd generation grid heater this week. Same as the previous but this one will be lighter and use Kobota RTV outer and JD gator inner air filter.

Stuffing a glow plug into intake ( or pair is even better ) will provide enough heat to make the Intake to hot to touch after about 60 seconds.

Doug
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rcavictim

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2007, 02:52:41 AM »
Stuffing a glow plug into intake ( or pair is even better ) will provide enough heat to make the Intake to hot to touch after about 60 seconds.

Doug

Doug,

My limited experience with automobile diesel glo-plugs (VW and Nissan) indicates that they burn out quite easily and care must be taken to limit their brief activation time.

Secondly, I think your setup is grossly inneficient.  By that I mean if you are heating the intake manifold, and that takes a lot of BTU`s to do this in a short period of time, you are not heating the air with that energy.  If it were me I would be incorporating suspended mesh of resistance heating wire directly in the clean air stream after the air filter.  I would make something much like the heating element in a hand held gun type hair dryer.
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Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2007, 03:37:35 AM »
I thought about what you said myself and I'm no expert on the subject.

The more power I throw at the intakes I've built up to now leads me to believe that two is probably as much heat as you can put in a confined space like this and I don't know if it will last.

I've played with them a lot, burned my fingers and can only guess at the true effectiveness untill I do a real world cold weather test.

A flame starter is still not out of the picture for me and its easy to make with my modular intake.

I thought about all kinds of different heater elements but I always came back to a glow plug because it doesn't risk any bits falling off if over heated.

Oh ya one more cold starting aid I see is spray paint.
No joke I see a lot of multy coloured intakes where I work, and angery mechanics replacing engines.
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rcavictim

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2007, 04:15:20 AM »
I thought about what you said myself and I'm no expert on the subject.

The more power I throw at the intakes I've built up to now leads me to believe that two is probably as much heat as you can put in a confined space like this and I don't know if it will last.

I've played with them a lot, burned my fingers and can only guess at the true effectiveness untill I do a real world cold weather test.

A flame starter is still not out of the picture for me and its easy to make with my modular intake.

I thought about all kinds of different heater elements but I always came back to a glow plug because it doesn't risk any bits falling off if over heated.

Oh ya one more cold starting aid I see is spray paint.
No joke I see a lot of multy coloured intakes where I work, and angery mechanics replacing engines.

Doug,

You raise a valid concern about putting something inside the intake tract and wanting to be sure bits would not fall off and enter the engine.  Here is an idea.  You had expressed interest in a long intake tuned runner.  How about taking a heater element from a home kitchen oven, bending it straight (heat the ss sleeve with a torch to straighten it out) and inserting the 4 feet or so coaxially down the center of the steel intake runner?!  That my friend will make some very seriously hot air in about 60 seconds or less and is completely unlikely to disintegrate within the manifold.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2007, 04:38:26 AM »
Very good idea , but how much heat can you get from that at 12 vdc? ( I squared R tells me not much ). I have 150 watts with my two glow plugs and believe me that doesn;t sound like much but see hot it gets, even the cylinder heat warms to the touch ( dry of course wet is a different matter )
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GuyFawkes

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2007, 11:26:38 AM »
Fundamental principles.

Diesels don't have problems "cold starting" because of cold air, but because of cold steel.

Cold air is denser than hot air, cold air gets literally more air per stroke into a cylinder, and thus, more air to burn more fuel in, and so more ultimate power, if turbo diesel intercoolers could cool to below freezing they would boost power significantly.

Like cold air, cold steel in denser than warm steel, because it contracts, because this expansion and contraction is fairly linear per degree of temperature, an object B twice as long as object A will expand or contract twice as much, so barrels and pistons are different sizes, like A and B so expand or contract a different amount, so the gap between them increases or decreases, thus raising or lowering compression.

This gets worse if you use dissimilar metals, and alloy piston instead of a cast one means a bigger gap when cold, lower still compression.

Heating the intake air doesn't do anything to fix this, except eventually over time, it will carry some heat into the cylinder.

Cranking generates heat of compression, which heats up the cylinder far more rapidly.

An in-cylinder glow plug creates a hot spot, desireable on a cold engine, to ease starting, by making a source of excess free electrons to propogate a flame front, a hot spot on a hot engine is a bad thing BTW.

Heating intake air will, slightly, excite the air molecules and do the same thing as the in cylinder glow plug, but far far less efficiently.

Cold oil is more viscous too.

Genuine Lister CS did everything right, the bitch will start as long as the diesel will flow, go away from that in a clone and every deviation makes things harder, the way to fix that is make things more like the original, not less.

Those living in real cold places have always had the solution to the problem of starting with cold steel, they heat the steel, pretty much directly, by heating the water jacket, smaller engines used block heaters and big engines used small donkey engines plumbed into the same water/coolant circuit, a 1kW electric immersion heater plumbed into the lowest point of a lister coolant circuit (with thermosyphon, no thermostat to screw things up) will heat even the coldest listeroid enough to start.

You don't need a water pump, this is not a car engine shoehorned into an awkward space, nothing in this world stops you having a coolant circuit with enough height from top to bottom to ensure thermosiphon, and thermosiphon can only not work when your coolant has leaked out.

May I remind you that hurricanes are proof that thermosiphon scales to multi gigawatt sizes, and never ever stops working, the laws of physics insist that temperature differential = flow....

"will it start cold" was always the benchmark for buying a diesel powered anything, if it started from cold there wasn't a lot wrong with it, if it didn't then walk away and buy another one, not because it couldn't be fixed, but because you don't buy ANYTHING from people who could not be bothered to maintain their kit.

If your diesel will not start cold, fix it, don't bodge it, and fixing it means addressing the issues of cold steel dimensions vs hot steel dimensions, not bolting on heath robinson gimmicks.

"fix it" in a single cylinder stationary engine is nothing like "fix it" in a cummins 6 installed under the hood of a pickup truck, which can be an awkward, time consuming, expensive pain in the ass, in a lister it just means worst case rebore + piston + rings and a head job, which will be both quicker and cheaper than all these fucking around bodges and gimmicks. Notably, it will be orders of magnitude more reliable, and also pay back big dividends elsewhere, eg fuel economy, emissions, noise, smoothness, reliability, ability to pull a sustained load.

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gpkull

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2007, 02:37:09 PM »
in the early 80's when ford first started with the international it was a idi with glow plugs. now it is DI witha turbo and the wait to start is a in line air heater. this is now the aid to cold starts as there are not glow plugs in them anymore. guy i agreee with your post and the density thing but the newer fords are full of hot air dont know about the others

oliver90owner

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2007, 06:20:40 PM »
GuyFawkes, you say:
"Diesels don't have problems "cold starting" because of cold air, but because of cold steel."

I say: Sorry, but it is hot air which ignites the fuel-air mix  If it is too cool, ignition will simply not take place.

You can re-bore, re-piston and  re-valve-seal yourengine as much as you like but if the engine does not turn quickly enough, you will not get anywhere near adiabatic conditions. 

Especially, if you turn it slowly enough, even with perfect compression (no gas leakage) you will achieve isothermal conditions.  The engine will never start!!

That has been a fundametal fact of life with small indirect injection engines for over 50 years.  When I mean small, I refer to smaller multicylinder engines fitted to all sorts of vehicles.  Any vehicle with heater plugs is clear evidence of this.  I would never expect to start an early Landrover without preheating it.  My 1980s Peugeot and my 1990s Vauxhall (Isuzi engine?) are instantaneous starters with proper heater plug circuits, but will not start (cold) without considerable difficulty.

Larger engines (cylinder size) have a better chance due to the improved ratio of surface area of metal to volume of compressed gas.


The fundamental problems with cold diesel engine starts is too little compression to produce a high enough temperature for ignition or that heat, even though produced, is lost from the gas into the surroundings (the metals of the engine)

You also say "Cranking generates heat of compression, which heats up the cylinder far more rapidly"

Again, I say no.  All things being equal as compression reduces all the heat of compression would theoretically be lost as any heat transferred to the metal would be needed to heat the gas back to its original temperature!! Standard conservation of energy.

What happens in practice is that we inject far more fuel than normal running requires in the belief that just enough, or more, ignites and provides enough energy to speed up the adiabatic compression process, warm the surroundings so that less heat is lost on the next compression stroke and the engine will start (accelerate on its own to governed speed).  If those effects are not present the engine will not speed up and so will not start. Hard, on the hand-start system!

Small diesel engines are a compromise when designing for starting or for full load.  The CS had an increased starting compression ratio but could not continually produce maximum power, without damage, unless run on a reduced compression ratio.  Later, auto engines had a fixed compression ratio and got over the problem with glow plugs.  Absolutely nothing to do with wear, contraction, expansion or most of your other observations including making electrons available.  And remember too, hot bulb engines absolutely required a hot spot to continue running.

Further, your point about expansion.  Engines are deigned for the correct clearances when hot, but have to accommodate cold starts.  Different metals (aluminium v cast iron)  will have different rates of expansion and this has to be addressed at the design stage.  Using similar metals, the clearances, when hot, will be very close to the cold clearances.  A cast iron cylinder will expand exactly the same amount as a cast iron piston made of the same material fitted to it.  Unfortunately account has to be made for the effects of cooling those parts, particularly at full power - cylinder/head may be very close to the water jacket and the piston is much more affected by the flame temperature....so operating temperatures may well be very different.

Hope this helps in understanding that the problem addressed inthis thread may have more than one solution.

Also please could yourefrain from using expletives and other derogatory descriptions in your posts.  Some readers may be juniors and think that this is normal, ( which I am sure it is not) and there may be others who find the use of these words as offensive.  iIt does nothing to enhance the discussion, either.

RAB

Doug

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2007, 06:48:00 PM »
If your under 20 and dig stationary engines and are reading this, stop shake your head find a nice girl or boy and see a movie. Its all fine and good to like them but If your spending your internet time reading about them its unhealthy  ;D

For the resty of us read on .....

Grid/flame heaters seem like a reasonable way to try and start things.
I've seen lots of examples and there would apear to be something too it
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spike

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Re: adding a water pump & starting on cold mornings
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2007, 07:45:00 PM »
Personally, I like the expletives and other derogatory descriptions, it reminds me of my old man. :)

Tim