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Author Topic: Energy in 6/1 flywheels  (Read 9989 times)

Mr Lister

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Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« on: February 11, 2006, 06:15:30 PM »
List,

One of the reasons why the Listeroid makes such a good generator engine, is because there is considerable energy stored in the flywheels. There are about 90lbs in just the rims of the spoked flywheels, and the old Startomatic had nearly 3 times this amount.

When you turn on a big electrical load, the stored energy is converted to electrical energy and assuming that the generator head has enough overload capability the motor can be started.

On Friday I went to the local car-wash to get the Lister-Gen and its trailer jet-washed as it has been a bit muddy around here.

The car wash crew had never seen a Lister, (being from Eastern Europe, Poland and Russia), and were all over it asking questions.

The boss approached me and asked some questions about the Lister and said that he would like to buy one. He had recently bought a very cheap 3kW Chinese gen-set, and was dismayed to discover that it died every time he tried to turn on the jet-wash.

From my measurements and calculations, a pair of standard spoked flywheels running at 650 rpm have a kinetic energy of about  13,500 Joules.

If you turned on a big load and the engine slowed from 650 rpm to 600 rpm, then 2000 joules would be absorbed by the alternator.

If this all happened in 2 seconds, then the alternator would supply it's usual 3kW plus an additional 1kW for those 2 seconds.

Sure you would lose your frequency regulation, but worse stuff happens.

Have any members got any experiences of starting big loads? If so how big,  and using what engine and gen-head?

Is this 125% figure for a 3kW load about right?


Ken



 

GerryH

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 09:07:34 PM »
With 3000 watts on line, I can start my 15 amp skillsaw and cut like it's plugged into the wall. However the temorary wiring nightmare I have for testing may affect this observation.

Gregmm

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 09:30:15 PM »
Years ago we had a HUKA MOMA (That is big for you youngens) air compressor with a starter capacitor that seemed to have a enough stored energy to light my home.  Could you wire a few starter capacitors in some way to pull a large load across the board just waiting to be used as needed ???

cujet

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 11:54:41 PM »
There is not really a way to use caps to store AC energy. DC energy can be stored by capacitors. That and an inverter in sync with the genset would work. But at that point one might as well use batteries.

The energy in those huge Lister flywheels is less that it would seem at first. Because the engines are so slow, the actual stored energy is not enough to smooth out the power pulses.

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

quinnf

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 01:11:11 AM »
Ken,

You know, one application I'd really like to see is a slow speed engine running a welding generator.  The load would be intermittent, and frequency regulation wouldn't matter, but it seems the available energy in the flywheels (of an engine somewhat larger than a 6/1) would be a good match for such an application.  I saw an ST-series genny somewhere a while back that was supposed to be able to double as a welding generator.

Quinn

Mr X

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 01:11:42 AM »
Well I deserve a pat on the back even If Im the only one willing to do it. I have now joined the club of power producing listeroid users. Man has it got balls compared to the crap I ve been using up till now. One unit was a disposibale Honda 5 hp with 4k gen 3600 rpm .
It would run my florecent lights but it had trouble  starting  my metal cut off saw, even when started it had no power to dive into a cut. I had to buy a band hack saw. Well Mr lister ran everything . I had a 3/4 hp bench grinder running my lights and I pluged in a cement mixer 3/4 hp. with cold  greese. Im really Impressed. Before this I had a 3 hp Petter diesel same gen head. that ran stuff allmost as good as the honda Again Im impressed. well worth the effort to cobbel things together. 

Greg
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

quinnf

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 01:56:56 AM »
Greg, well, heck, I'll pat you on the back!  Congrats on making the switch.  Sounds like SLOW's your speed!  Cement mixer, band hack saw, metal cutoff saw, aren't tools great?

Quinn

Tom

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 02:39:31 AM »
I have an air compressor that my 4.4kw b&s  generator won't start. The Lister starts it no sweat even with a 2kw load already. Also the first real work my generator did was to run my wire feed welder to install a door in a shipping container. Ran the welder great too.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Mr Lister

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2006, 05:42:13 PM »
Guys,

Thanks for the feedback about starting various loads. Perhaps we can make up a table of what kW load (or device) can be started from what engine and generator.

That way we have well documented details for other listeroid users to follow.   With nearly 170 members on this forum, we are becoming a powerful knowledge base on just what can, and cannot be done with these amazing engines.

I have posted my latest pictures of my 1950 CS 5/1  running this morning at my local stationary engine show. Cold, wet and miserable, until you get it started and can warm you hands on the cylinder ;-)

www.powercubes.com/lister_news.html


Ken


Mr X

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2006, 07:18:23 PM »
Not really fly wheel related but power transmition. I never realised what a sweet belt system the serpentine belt is, I loaded my Roid and made it work, the belt didnt flutter much on the loose side and when I shut it down it wasent hot. Id love to use these belts elets where in my creations but youd bee looking at bout 250 bucks each engine and driven.Why arnt this system available at your local parts stores?

Greg
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

GerryH

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2006, 09:30:32 PM »
Mr X,
havent you ever listened to a V Belt? Cheep, Cheep Cheep

Mr Lister

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 09:36:31 AM »
List,

Using Guy Fawkes dimensions from his Startomatic flywheels:

I calculate that there is 87kg of metal in each rim and a further 27kg (max) in the central disc.  190lbs and 60lbs respectively. So a maximum weight of 250lbs for each flywheel.

The rims when running at 650 rpm will  hold 26 kJ of energy, approximately twice that of the standard spoked flywheel at the same rpm.

The further flywheel on the alternator is 14" diameter and spinning at 1500rpm - this also contributes to the overall inertia.


Ken




GuyFawkes

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 10:12:43 AM »
List,

Using Guy Fawkes dimensions from his Startomatic flywheels:

I calculate that there is 87kg of metal in each rim and a further 27kg (max) in the central disc.  190lbs and 60lbs respectively. So a maximum weight of 250lbs for each flywheel.


I've never weighed a start-o-matic flywheel, but many years ago a lister worker told me, word for word, during a chat over a few pints
" ...them flywheels weigh twenty one stone... " as part of a story about getting a forklift stuck, rear wheels off the ground
" ...them flywheels weigh twice a standard CS... " as part of a story about miscalculating stock weight on shelves that collapsed

it is from there that I got my 295 lbs, I took it as an "informed source" and it sort of "looked" and "felt" about right, but I could easy be a couple of stone out.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rocketboy

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2006, 05:02:29 PM »
As a self proclaimed genset masochist and starter of huge electrical loads I think I can offer some trivia here...

A 16/2 connected to a 12 kw ST head will make 12 KW at rated voltage, no more. The ST heads voltage quickly drops when over loaded.

I can start a 2 ton, or 3 ton A/C with no problem even with the generator already at half load. Starting a old inefficient 5 ton A/C is a bear and will bring my listeroid to it's knees. in fact, it won't start it if I don't start the blower fan first. When I throw the switch, the Ammeters peg, volts drop to 50 per leg, the belts sqeals like a stuck pig and the engine belches black smoke as the rpm drops to 150. All of these thing are not good, yet the genset will give an impressive effort. This 5 ton A/c unit pulls 30 amps while running.

Everything else I own starts easily with the genset including well pumps, pool pumps etc. While the generator is heavily loaded, the shop air compressor will kill it if  comes on. This is a small 2 HP unit, but it's a brute to start.

It's a tough system that like to be worked hard.
Sadly, artificial intelligence will never be a match for natural stupidiy.

Ironworks

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Re: Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2006, 11:31:49 PM »
I was wondering if a start-o-matic engine had a beefier crank since it has heavier flywheels?