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Author Topic: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET  (Read 12475 times)


t19

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2007, 04:30:20 AM »
WOW thats a sweet little set up
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

Shadow

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 06:39:00 AM »
Where is the intake/air btreather? Looks very slick otherwise!

JMW

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 10:36:10 AM »
When the generators (and engines, for that matter) are shipped, the air cleaner and exhaust are packaged separately.
When making the video, they thought it unnecessary to put the air cleaner on - though I would have thought it would have reduced the noise even further.

If anyone wants to know more about these machines, please ask. They are built to my (well, Volvox) specification, though anyone outside Europe can buy them direct from the manufacturer.

Mark

rmchambers

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 01:59:09 PM »
That's a very nice package indeed.  I like the fact that all the "murphy" type things are in place as is an easy way to see electrical specs like voltage and frequency and load.

The radiator could be bypassed for thermosyphon cooling if needed but unless cogen was a necessity then this is a slick way of doing things.

How much does the whole unit weigh?  I bet it's an impressive thing to try and move about.

RC

JMW

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 05:46:53 PM »
Thermosyphon was the original specification. However, when running at maximum power (9.5hp), the thermosyphon system can not manage to dump the heat fast enough. The chosen solution was to use a pump, but to guarantee that the engine never runs cool, there is a selection of coolant pump pulley sizes to allow you to adjust the speed of the pump.

The weight is 650kgs. We thought it might be useful to put a lifting eye on it. Then at least it would be possible to use an engine hoist/crane with it.

Mark

rpg52

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 06:27:40 PM »
Anyone else have problems getting the video to load?   ???
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

rcavictim

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 08:14:35 PM »
Thermosyphon was the original specification. However, when running at maximum power (9.5hp), the thermosyphon system can not manage to dump the heat fast enough. The chosen solution was to use a pump, but to guarantee that the engine never runs cool, there is a selection of coolant pump pulley sizes to allow you to adjust the speed of the pump.



Mark

Automobile manufacturers have been dealing with varying engine load thus varying heat output, and wide ranging ambient temperature conditions from wellll below freezing to over 100 F in summer now for almost 100 years.  Their engines have a water pump too.  They do not ask the owner to lift the hood and change pump pulleys constantly to accomodate for season, weather, hills, etc.  The clever gizmo that they employ is called a thermostat.

The fact that you use a pulley change to accomodate normal operational conditions completey baffles me.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

taeuber

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 09:20:41 PM »
Hi there!

How is the engine shut down? Is there just an electrical switched valve that cuts the fuel line before injection pump?

I see no mechanism that puts the valve lifter in decompression (start) position. So I think you have to put the engine in starting condition before starting manually, don't you?

Nice work anyway.

Lars

ronmar

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 09:55:40 PM »
To start manually, yes, i would think you need the decompression lever.  Looks as if they have a starter that is strong enough to overcome the compression to start.  I was loooking to see if it bounced back at shutdown, but the camera man appears to have been on acid while filming this...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

JMW

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 12:16:02 AM »
Some explanations needed here.

Firstly, the cooling system.
As mentioned i my previous post, the best way (IMO) to cool this engine is using the thermosyphon method. The thermosyphon effect is self-regulating; ie. the hotter the engine gets the higher the coolant water flow rate goes (up to a limit defined by the width of the pipes and channels through the cylinder head and radiator). The thermosyphon effect even negates the need for the thermostat. When the engine is cold (which is when the thermostat does its job and stops the flow), there is no thermosypon flow.

A little more info about the machine before describing the pump pulley system.
These generators are multi-speed machines. When I say this, I do not mean that the running speed varies. I mean it can be set at different speeds. The speed settings are 1000, 850, 650, and 400rpm, and the generator comes with a set of pulleys to allow the alternator speed to be 1500rpm whilst running at any of the above engine speeds. The idea here is that you can setup our generator to meet your needs, which will vary over the seasons. In summer you may only need 1kW from your genset, but you have the ability to get much more from it when you need it - in winter.
There are several advantages of running your engine slow when you need less power:-
1) The wear on the engine is reduced and your service interval increases.
2) It produces less noise.
3) The pumped cooling system works appropriately for the engine speed - you won't over cool your system.

If you live in a cool climate (e.g. the UK) and you don't usually run it above 850rpm, then it is recommended that you do not use the coolant pump - just rely on the thermosyphon. However, if you live in hotter climates and want to run the genset at full-power, then you should use the pump, and you have a selection of pulleys to get the engne temperature exact - but the choice is yours. If you don't use the pump, then you don't need a thermostat. Also, these engines are not started and stopped as frequently as automobiles, so we thought a thermostat would not add much value.

The starting and stopping.
Both stopping and starting is done by the control panel. Stopping is achieved by the use of a solenoid that closes the rack. This allows the control panel to monitor coolant temperature and lubrication oil level. It also means the genset can be started and stopped by a timer or an inverter.

Mark

rcavictim

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 12:40:47 AM »
Mark,

Thank you for providing additional information, details and your philosophy.  I disagree with your philosophy about the need for a thermostat however, thermosiphon or not.  Your statement that such engines are not started frequently has merit in this regard, but not enough to override my own philosophy regarding the use of a T-stat, in particular with an engine throttled down to work better in light load situations.

Regards.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 12:52:25 AM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

ronmar

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 03:07:34 AM »
Some explanations needed here.

Firstly, the cooling system.
As mentioned i my previous post, the best way (IMO) to cool this engine is using the thermosyphon method. The thermosyphon effect is self-regulating; ie. the hotter the engine gets the higher the coolant water flow rate goes (up to a limit defined by the width of the pipes and channels through the cylinder head and radiator). The thermosyphon effect even negates the need for the thermostat. When the engine is cold (which is when the thermostat does its job and stops the flow), there is no thermosypon flow.

Mark

Mark
I agree that thermosiphon is desireable, but I disagree that a thermostat is not...    The problem without using a thermostat in this application with a radiator is that you have established a constant cooling rate with the radiator.  The forced air thru the radiator will lower the water in the radiator to near ambient temp  It is true, that  the thermosiphon effect is self regulating, more heat = more flow.  By establishing the cooling constant with the fan and radiator, you will be overcooling the water.  So the water in the cylinder will warm up and begin to flow.  As soon as new cool water comes in from the bottom, the water flow will stop untill the water warms up. Ever watch an automatic drip coffee maker?  It workes in pulses the same way.  Without a thermostat You will be condemming the engine to a series of thermal cycles, much like that experienced by an auto engine at startup and shutdown.  This same thing happens at first with thermosiphon using tank cooling.  But with a cooling tank, it becomes less and less as the tank water absorbs the heat and starts feeding warmer and warmer water to the cylinder base.  Then the regulating factor becomes the tank size and temp compared to the outside air and the ammount of evaporation that results from this difference.  Higher tank temp, higher evap and greater heat transfer.

If you pump or thermosiphon the water from the radiator without a thermostat, the cylinder and head will run cool all the time.  This is bad on many levels.  Cool combustion chamber/cylinder walls recondenses liquid fuel which passes rings and increases fuel oil dilution.  This condensed fuel also carbons up instead of combusting.  This lowers efficiency and increases maintenance intervls to clean it off. 

With a thermostat, either pumped or thermosiphon, the temperature can still cycle and the water flow still pulse if the water is overcooled in the radiator or tank. But the pulses are happening nearer 200F than 100F and this is much better for combustion.  The key to smooth reliable temp control is balancing the radiator or tank cooling capacity to the engines heat output and environmental conditions.  Too much radiator is as bad as too little.  Ever see a large diesel semi truck in winter conditions?  There is usually a zippered cover over the radiator to limit airflow and match the cooling capacity to the heat output.  Most autos on the road since the 80's either have a thermal clutch on the fan drive or use a thermostatically controlled electric fan to regulate airflow to match thermal output.

That is where I think the variable speed fan and pump are an excellent idea.  Ideally, the thermostat should open and stay open, operating somewhere in the thermostats open range across the engines heat output range.  Barely open at low load, wide open at full load.  you also have some thermodynamics working in your favor to regulate temperature.  As the coolant temp reaching the radiator rises with increased load, it's temp difference with the ambient air also increases so it transfers more heat, same as the thermosiphon tank does thru increased evaporation.

Cold Engine = BAD!
Thermostat = GOOD!     

Ron 
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

rcavictim

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 05:31:25 AM »
Thanx for taking the time to give a good explanation Ron.  It is for the reasons you give that I champion the use of a T-stat.  Any operation below proper operating temp makes the engine wear out faster as well as perform poorly.  The T-stat gets the engine up to operating Temp- stat.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

JMW

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Re: NEW VIDHATA LISTER TYPE GENSET
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2007, 07:24:39 AM »
Guys,

You have constructed a very convincing case. Thank you.
Thermostats will be added immediately.

Mark