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Author Topic: Bicycle Computer  (Read 16243 times)

Gregmm

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 09:14:21 PM »
With all the talk about runaways a good way to stop a lister is a 2” ball valve on a spring in line with the air intake, if the rpm gets to high the controller sends a signal to trip the valve to close. No air no combustion. With a programmable controller that is under 30 bucks you could do a lot of things and if the controller goes bad I can come up with that kind of money.  ;D

quinnf

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 01:23:44 AM »
I keep envisioning something inspired by the great inventor, Mr. Rube Goldberg. 

1.  Engine goes too fast, noise bothers grouchy neighbor who
2.  Throws a boot out the window, which falls short and
3.  Scares cat, which incites
4.  Dog to chase it.  To dog's tail is tied a string, the other end of which
5.  Pulls pin in recess of intake manifold, which
6.  Releases a rubber ball which gets sucked into intake, blocking incoming air.

Quinn

Joe

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2006, 02:21:11 AM »
Quinn,
Actually, I’ve been pondering Your Steps #5 & 6.  I would think a rubber ball would deform enough to literally get sucked into the engine…and concern for the rubber deteriorating from age/heat/oil….I now use a billiard ball with tremendous success as a check valve on a pump for my business. They’re 2.25” dia (5.7 cm) very round and durable….I envision a slightly tapered intake with the ball suspended over it by a pin…any number of means could be employed to pull the pin ….air/ solenoid/ string …then run like hell. I think it could be done and still "look" like a standard  air filter/intake.
With a potential run away/lose flywheel in mind I have changed orientation of the engine from facing my house to that of the neighbor…  ;)

Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

Doug

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2006, 04:42:39 AM »
When you people start bringing up Z80s stamps and pics to control things my hairs stand up...
This is the way to go way to complex to program and not at all as robust as needed.

So I make this offer if someone here has the technical background and will to try and do this I will offer up a Siemens LOGO 230RC industrial controller for free provided he uses it for said purpose and posts pictures.
In fact I have a few of them, but don't waste my time or the groups asking for and having me ship you something you can't or don't have the will to carry through and use.

Doug

quinnf

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2006, 05:05:34 AM »
Joe,

Well, there's rubber balls, and then there's rubber balls.  Billiard ball would work, too, if it makes a decent enough seal.  Just the concept of having a pin which could be pulled by some mechanism and then the intake sucking something into it, even a rag would do, to stifle the flow of air.  I was just thinking of something resilient enough to make a reasonable seal.  Yes, it'd have to be able to withstand a harsh environment.   

Doug,

That's why my facetious comments about the Rube Goldberg approach.  I was gently poking fun at the high tech solution to low tech problems I keep seeing offered on this board.  There's gotta be a really simple way to do this that is failsafe and rugged.  Trouble is, we're all too highly technologized to figure one out quickly.  Give this problem to a farmer and in about 15 minutes he could probably have it figured out and ready to test.

Quinn

Doug

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2006, 05:11:57 AM »
Quinn:

Making things that are too complicated for common sence work for a living is wgat I do lol.
But if your heart is said on micro processor based controls, buy a battle hardened industrial controller. This silliness of trying to build something using descrete electronics is like packing fine China in the trunk of the car your driving at the demo derby.

Doug

BruceM

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2006, 06:44:06 AM »
Doug, The Logo programmable relay type modules look nice but I wouldn't base an engine control around them as they lack the degree of programability needed.  Industrial grade processors are just the same chip spec'd for a wider temperature range, usually at a derated speed.  But a good EMC design is important if you don't want a glitchy result. This means primarily conditioning input and output lines to tolerate noise, voltage spikes, etc., as well as proper board design and power conditioning. 

There is always an attempt to make controllers which are "easy to program", since the dawn of embedded processors in the 70's.  They seem to do everything you need.  Then you try to do the last 10%, or add a new function and find out you're screwed, despite your often huge investment in usually proprietary development hardware and software.  I have seen development projects go down this road and run late and over budget (or outright fail) many times while trying to save time up front by using someone's proprietary setup.

Folks that can write software don't find programming a suitable uProcessor a big deal. There's a bit more up front time but NO limitations and nobody else's software bugs. There are nice prototyping boards already built for you.  Someone without programing and embedded microprocessor application experince would be better off with a basic stamp module.

Bruce






 


SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2006, 09:40:00 AM »
We use Allen Bradley PLCs at work, and I've even been to a few classes. I liked it alot.
I sure don't understand what you just said.....But it sounds sensible :D
I was thinking that a PLC setup would be alot more reliable than a PC based control system, but the investment in a full chassis and a programming software package would cast a few thou...(RS view and RS linx) Plus teaching myself how to program instead of just troubleshoot.
Not having worked in the design side of control systems, I wouldn't know where to buy the stuff, let alone what to buy. I do have a Newark electronics catalog.....If someone else (Bruce) had a schematic and a cut sheet. I did build a kit radio and fix a few tube radios......
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Gregmm

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2006, 08:07:29 PM »
Quinn

Woo up pardoner all that negative talk of combining a 21 century controller thing with a 1920-type engine I love the idea of being on the cutting edge of obsolescence.


 Greg  ;)

BruceM

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 12:55:37 AM »
Ken (Mr Lister) sent me some good info on the PIC processors, and I'm amazed at how capable and cheap they are.  Cheaper to use one than a few CMOS logic chips and a couple quad 555 timer.  No kidding.  I'm going to dust off a few old brain cells and kick a PIC's tires.




n2toh

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2006, 04:00:43 AM »
don't forget about the Atmel line of chips! They have some really good stuff, there is also a free demo of a powerfull basic compiler available.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

kyradawg

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2006, 04:07:07 AM »



Peace&Love :D, Darren

« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:38:21 PM by kyradawg »

Mr Lister

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2006, 09:03:43 AM »
Guys,

Bruce and I exchanged a few ideas off-list. 

The first aim would be to make a simple device to monitor the engine - as George B. says - KISS :

1.  RPM
2.  Coolant temperature
3.  Oil level
4.  Low fuel

If any of these went outside normal operating values then the PIC (or whatever) would sound an alarm or operate a relay to activate a shut down solenoid.

The solenoid pin underneath the exhaust valve lifter is the way the Startomatic worked for years.
I don't see any reason to invent anything more complicated.

Guy Fawkes has some very good photos showing how this operates on his SOM.

Although I make a living from microelectronics, I firmly believe that there is an elegance to a machine that will start making electricity in 15 seconds, provided that there is fuel in the tank and a starter handle in your hand.

Dreaming up all sorts of elaborate engine management schemes is all  very well for passing time on a cold wet Sunday afternoon, but it will always be the simplest ideas that prevail.

Just my $0.02


Ken


Doug

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2006, 04:24:30 AM »
To each their own.....
The Logo is probably the easiest PLC one can buy and use and there are more powerful versions. I stand by my sugestion this would be the simplest thing to use. You don't need analog inputs with a Lister high speed counters, and some simple logic will work fine.
If you must get more complicated the AB Micrologics are very common and popular in the US, SLC 500s if you can find them. But RS logics is expensive programing software.
The Modicon A120 series offer a more flexable programing language (that means its more complicated to learn) and the Demo software package lets you program up to 25 networks (that 7*25 rungs of logic more than any Old Listeroid will need).

Mr.Lister (Ken), your dead on the money keep it simple.

QuinnF, your absolutely right and I'll tell you something a few years back I began building an automated home brewery because I got in a pissing contest with another brewer/electrcian in California. I now have a 90% completed gizmo with a big Modicon 800 series machine to run it and TCP touch screan set the parameters  variable speed drives RTDs auto vavles ect to and it will never brew beer how Rube Goldberg is that.....

Bruce.M, Micro controllers are fine if thats what you comfortable with. I used to be able to program 6800, and Z80s (8085 too by extention) but I gave up my wire wrapping tool when Inco handed me blunt instruments like cable spikers and rachet cutters. I'm sure you can build your own very good controller but I have a Modicon Micro 612 that can do all the same things, I salvaged it from a scrap electric train. After 2years hard use a mile down and 3 years of snow sun and rain out in the bone yard I cleaned out the bugs and rust and it worked (so did a second I salvaged from a another train. Heres irony for you I installed them 3 years earlier when I rebuilt these trains at another company) 
I don't believe any home built controller would survive such abuse.

Shipcheif (Scott), If you have access to RS Logics I'd say go for it and buy a used PLC on Ebay, Pitty I traded one for two empty Corny Kegs a while back it would have been just right for you. What ABB lacks in sophistication they make up for in ease of use and programing.

Fanuc
SYMAX
Texas Instruments
Toshiba
Foxboro
ABB

Avoid these, some are orphans now no longer suported, or just so plain wierd you have to ask what they were thinking. The ABB PLCs are probably the most flexable and powerful machines you can get, but you will end up a freaking out trying to use them. I run in small circles waving my hands in the air screaming bad words more than a mile underground because of an ABB machine in an electric truck I am convinced was designed by Swedish engineers on the wrong meds in mental hospital far north of 60

BruceM

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Re: Bicycle Computer
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2006, 10:31:30 PM »
It's interesting how many of those proprietary industrial controllers are now obsolete and unavailable. I think you made a good case for me, Doug.  ;) 

I've noticed that various microcomputer chips (and other pieces of gear) seem to support a following almost like a religious cult. So maybe technical guys have a different religious outlet???  We humans are sure strange beings..

In processor research I also notice that even the oldest single chip computers like the 6502 or 8051 or Z8 and Z80 are still available, and supported with software tools, etc.  Some have spawned many newer versions with the same instruction set.  It seems old processors never die. 

Regarding the decompression pin approach.  This is appealing as it could use a modest power solenoid if the controller put the pin out during shut down.  Otherwise your starter would have to be able to crank over the eingine through compression one stroke at least,, as if the engine stops just before the power stroke, the exhaust valve is fully down, and won't lift till after you've gone through compression. I expect the Start O Matic could crank through compression or the pin was shaped such that with enough force it could actually lift the tappet, if need be?  Maybe Ken can enlighten us on the decompression pin details.

I'm going air cylinder again (as in rack closer) as it's very easy to have enough force to lift the valve tappet base at any time. It's cheap and effective.  I'm sorry won't be much help for anyone who doesn't have a source of compressed air, but I think there's only a few who want the complexity of auto start/shutdown anyway.

Bruce M