Variable speed Lister CS?

[Twenty4Seven]

Hi

I'm hoping to put my recently acquired original CS to use in a CHP system.......



Mark Walker (Volvox) suggests that the engine can be run at variable speeds, "by changing the goveror spring settings"

• For the purpose of parts, sizes, measurements, servicing and default settings, this engine is 6hp set to run at 650rpm.
  However, this engine is mechanically identical to the manufacturer's 8hp running at 850rpm, and this manufacturer has also supplied the same engine producing 9hp at 1050rpm. If you wanted to get more power from this engine, all you need do is change the governor spring setting.
  

... see ebay item number 250148716594

The engine I've bought is set to run at 650 rpm, generating 6hp which, as I understand it, should have no trouble driving a generator to produce 230V 50Hz at 3kW. Whilst this will fulfill my needs most of the time, the gen head I'm considering is rated at 5kW and if it's simple to do, itmay be useful to run the engine at a higher speed (850 rpm?) to increase the generator output. Is it really as simple as changing the govenor spring? Anything else I should consider?

Thanks in advance.

Nick

[GuyFawkes]

Volvox is kinda right and kinda wrong...

"mechanically identical" isn't actually true, there are differences, some are obvious (no compression changeover valve) and some are subtle (different flywheel balancing for optimisation at the higher rpm) so the bottom line is a Lister CS 6/1 and 8/1 are very similar, but not identical bar some governor setting....  the 6/1 was made and shipped as a 6/1, the 8/1 was made and shipped as an 8/1, if all they had to do was adjust the governor they would have done it on day one and sold at a higher ticket price......

The other thing to consider is frequency, if you are in the states and getting 60 Hz at 650 motor RPM, simply upping motor RPM to 850 will get you 78 Hz, not good.....

Basically you are approaching the problem entirely wrong, you have 3 kW or so to play with, so cut your suit according to that cloth, what you and other are talking about is using elastic cloth, stretch it a bit when needed to make an extra pants leg, the end result will be a bad suit...

As I said elsewhere, your problem is in peak vs average loads, you can't fix that by messing with the generator side of the equation

As an aside, looking at your picture, your biggest problem compared to the pukka startomatic is you don't have anywhere near enough flywheel mass, your spoked flywheels weigh half the startomatic ones, and your gen head won't have a startomatic style flywheel (in addition to the rotor mass) either, and that, like our listeroid friends, is going to cause you more problems governing etc than anything else, far easier to simply sort that first, 600 lbs of flywheel on the motor and 150 lbs of flywheel on the head will transform your world.

Alternatively consider addressing the peak vs average load issue by generating DC and charging an accumulator bank to power an inverter, either as sole power generation or as an adjunct with frequency synchronisation to the ac side.

Either way, address the REAL problem, not the imaginary one, eg peak vs average loads.

[mike90045]

However, this engine is mechanically identical to the manufacturer's 8hp running at 850rpm, and this manufacturer has also supplied the same engine producing 9hp at 1050rpm.

I've gathered that the flywheels are different, and the 650 RPM wheels are unsafe at higher speeds, because of higher centrifugal forces.  Piston, Cranks and bearings are likely the same.

[Twenty4Seven]

Thanks for the replys guys. Looks like I made a newbie faux pas with the engine. That'll teach me to wade in without researching properly first. Are the heavier, S.O.M. type flyweels available on the market?

Re engine speed and generator frequency, if you did want to try and increase the engine speed, in order to increase the horsepower, wouldn't it be possible to get around the frequency problem by using a larger pully on the generator?

Mark Walker of Volvox sell a variable speed generator based around a listeroid 6/1. See his website ...

http://www.volvoxengineering.com/GensetsMulti.htm

Wonder how he gets around the problem?

Regards

Nick

[Doug]

Some of the Listeroids offer a choice of a heavier fly wheel.

I can't give any technical detrails because I don't own one and never realy looked into it. But I believe Utterpower has ordered some heavier flywheels for the Powersolutions Kit motors, or I think I read that some place.

Volvox is in bed with Utterpower so they have access to the same castings.

I've been trying to find an example from the Petteroids but Iknow of three different fly wheel wieghts available for three aplications. The light weight is for pumping the medium is for general purpose engines like mills grinders and mixers and the heavy weights are for generation. The heavy Petteroid wheel ranges between 26 and 64 kg depending on the maker but this information is hard to find  unless you ask for it.'

Most of the people who import Listeroids seem to import a general purpose engine so they may have a light fly wheels unless you ask for it this is probably what you get.

Never seen a true SOM fly wheel pictured on a roid so its hard to say, I know Mikie Monteeth has some heavier than normal wheels on his GM 90s but I don;t know the technical info on them or if they can be fitted to an internaly ballanced Roid.

[biobill]

The Volvox link is interesting. 5k hr guarantee? Seems to be missing a lot of the apparatus that you would expect to see on a veg. oil burner. Single tank? Starts on veg oil? and...supplies all your heating and electrical needs.()  Gotta get a brochure. Wonder if you could buy just the chrome valve cover?

 Doug, did you see the petter based "compact" unit?
 
 Guy,    your thoughts on the mounting system? 

[Doug]

Yes I have looked at it and it looks impressive.

Idon;t know much about it but I can tell you a few things from the pictures.

Unlike all the other Petteroids I have seen this one has a bell housing of some sort and I know some of the Indian Petteroids are built for a marine gear box so this may be one of those. ( looks something like the Petter ASJW )

It has the gear oil pump and a from drive off the crank unlike most most of the cheap ones we see here.

The oil filter is aftermarket, the fuel filter and water seperator look better than we have seen on other Petteroids.

There apears to be an oil line to the factory bypass oil filter. Thge fly wheel and bell housing hide where this comes from but I suspect its from the rear main bearing and this leads me to believe this is a Bushed petteroid not a cheaper TRB.

All together a very interesting looking engine I would love to strip a part and see how it all works.

I suspect it may be close to the KOEL  DM10  but this engine can produce more shaft power. Its 3 to 5 kw rating leads me to think it uses the shorter 110 mm crank and possibly smaller bore 95 mm bore but this is just a guess.

Volvox only knows whats inside and they claim to have modified everything to run it on veg oil ( easy to say that harder to do

It has the remote start/stop package that I have heard of but never actualy seen.

[rleonard]

Other differences in Lister 650 and 850 RPM engines are the pistons.  850 RPM engines have aluminum pistons and 650's are cast iron.  Lister cylinders up to 6 HP (including 12/2) have the tie rods "enclosed".  8/1 and 16/2 havre the cylinder studs exposed.  Flywheels are different as previously mentioned.

Bob

[phaedrus]

While every situation is unique it may be that you ought to buy PV system parts with the money you're going to have to spend to make a variable speed lister produce constant frequency power. The lister set makes a nice backup for a PV system. The reason for variable speed is to save fuel, mostly. You can save more fuel for less money and get more KWH over the life-times involved, much more, by making the lister a constant speed backup to a PV system.

Meantime a good start would be to learm more about electronics. Utterpower CD has the USN electronics TM in it - that's a good start.

[Doug]

Generaly a public library will also have USN training manual.

I live in Canada and have found them here, for free with a library card.

Doug

[phaedrus]

Please excuse this digression, Doug, and everbody. The "grass may only seem greener" from my perspective here in the South, but oftentimes I am inclined to speculate on how things would be for me if I had "gone to Canada" in the VietNam period. I almost did. Instead I told those er, "people" down at the draftboard that if they wanted somebody killed they'd have to do it themselves - not quite in those words, you understand, and they gave me a 4-F...sorta an "Alice's Resturant" senario. Canada's again starting to look pretty attractive to a lot of yanks, I understand.

[rpg52]

phaedrus,

"Canada's again starting to look pretty attractive to a lot of yanks, I understand."

Don't leave now, only ~540 days left until regime change!   

Ray

[Doug]

Please excuse this digression, Doug, and everbody. The "grass may only seem greener" from my perspective here in the South, but oftentimes I am inclined to speculate on how things would be for me if I had "gone to Canada" in the VietNam period. I almost did. Instead I told those er, "people" down at the draftboard that if they wanted somebody killed they'd have to do it themselves - not quite in those words, you understand, and they gave me a 4-F...sorta an "Alice's Resturant" senario. Canada's again starting to look pretty attractive to a lot of yanks, I understand.

I've only been to the USA a couple of times and my genral impression are that Americans are basicaly Canadians in too big of a rush.
Strange political system, needs a few more parties and I think you would be happy with a minorty goverment right now ( politicians work best when they fear elections and loosing their jobs )
Beyond that nice country you have there.