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Author Topic: An American Listeroid?  (Read 8407 times)

rpg52

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An American Listeroid?
« on: July 19, 2007, 02:10:37 PM »
Mike90045 mentioned in another thread about http://www.oldstylelisters.com/.

I recommend looking at the site.  According to the site, they completely re-machine an Indian Listeroid to 1st world standards.  Clean, balance, replace parts to make (according to their site) engines that will last up to 100,000 hours (you pay for it, of course).  I'm not an engineer or machinist, but I found it impressive.  As usual, you get what you pay for - I have no financial interest, etc., etc.   :)
The pictures of their modifications are worth the visit.
Ray

PS - Noticibly missing is any mention of EPA compliance.  Single engine exemptions?  It seems their capacity couldn't exceed a dozen engines a year.  Not sure what it all means.   :-X
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 03:15:27 PM by rpg52 »
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

GuyFawkes

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2007, 03:20:36 PM »
I'm not taking a pop at anyone here, just musing aloud...

#1 I am assuming the 100,000 hour number comes from some lore about Listers.

#2 100,000 hours is a 12 hour a day duty cycle for near as dammit 23 years.

#3 You're going to have to throw away the indian crank, unless it is manganese molybdenum high tensile hardended and tempered, like the Lister CS crank, ditto the TRB's, all of which can be done, but before you know it there just isn't 500 buck worth of indian components left over to make the new 100k hour engine with.

#4 NONE of these engine can claim any significant engine hours or decades of service, they simply haven't been around in this form long enough, so they only way left to make such claims is by using mathematical statistical methods, a bit like the computer Hard Disk manufacturers do, or new car models do...

#5 One of these acceptable methods is, MTBF = ( 2 x T x N ) / X, where T = test duration, where N = number of devices tested, and where X = a constant specified by an appropriate standards body, eg USCG or USMIL or SAE etc.

#6 If you test 3 engine for Mr belks 5k hours (I pick him because he has one of the higher recorded (not guessed) hours) then the formula goes MTBF = (2 x 3 x 5000) / X = 30,000 / X, so let's say X = 2, then MTBF = 15k hours...... ***BUT*** you have to have run a batch of 3 test engines for 5,000 hours EACH and had ZERO failures to claim this.

#7 There is another statistical test, Ongoing Reliability test, (test time x number of sample units ) / number of sample units with failures. But this is AFTER shipping, whereas the MTBF is from the design and prototype stage. If ORT is significantly lower then MTBF then heads roll, consumers see it as "product recall".

#8 "1" or "2" are not statistically significant numbers of test units, ten is about minimum.

#9 "failure" means ANY kind of failure, air in the fuel system, overheating or simply not pulling rated load are fails, jsut the same as throwing a rod, doesn't matter if the test unit is a bag of swarf and scrap at the end of the test run, as long as it is still actually running within spec.

#10, listers had made literally millions of stationary engines by the time the CS range settled down to the 6/1 version, it took them man centuries of labour to get it there, not a feat likely to be duplicated by a handful of individuals, no matter how insanely talented they were or how bottomless the chequebook, making shit that keeps working for decades is ______HARD______, orders of magnitude harder than anything else in engineering.

So, like I said, not actually wishing to have a pop at anyone in particular, but "100k" sounds like purest fantasy, and I find myself muttering "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." You can however market something very effectively.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rpg52

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2007, 04:37:45 PM »
Exactly right GuyF, even in the depths of my engineering ignorance, I had (have) the same doubts regarding the 100K engine. 

One interesting item from the website was the contention that a 6/1 running at 500 rpm generated 6 hp.  Unless there is some design change not revealed, I thot the real Lister CS design generated 5 hp at 600 rpm, 6 hp @ 650rpm, etc., etc.  Maybe it is valid, but no evidence is offered.  Hmmm.   ???
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

dmp

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2007, 07:14:58 PM »
Old style listers...Isn't this the questionable Wilem?

David

rpg52

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2007, 09:53:34 PM »

From dmp, "Old style listers...Isn't this the questionable Wilem?"

Excellent question dmp - I was pondering this while cleaning out the chicken coop (I do my best thinking while doing mindless chores).  Several questions (and observations) come to mind.  How could this supposed company (Old Style Listers) afford to keep both a diesel mechanic and machinist employed if they take 3-4 months to finish an engine, and their total production is less than a dozen engines?  Even if they sold them at $4-6,000  apiece, pretty poor employment prospects.

Also, if you look at the work done on the cylinder (photos of using an air chisel and grinder), they don't appear to be actually doing anything - just a casting with a hand and a tool hovering over it.  The head work - porting, valve guides, etc. only prove that it was done once - if you take their 100K hour engine apart, you void the "warrenty", which is likely as valuable as the paper it is written on.

So, does anyone know who Old Style Listers is?  Was that the name of Wilem's "company"?  Inquiring minds and all that.   :-\
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

dmp

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2007, 12:11:36 AM »
Ray

Think GINZU knives when I see "warrenty"...QVC Listeroids.  Seriously, anoybody have experience with this outfit?
Convincing responses only.

David

jimdunne

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2007, 01:26:44 AM »
Just a quick perusal on the web turns this up:

"andree--why the hell does that name seem so familiar?
         Dave

At 04:35 PM 3/14/2005, you wrote:
>http://www.andree-international.com/
>
>Is the main site for these bozos. Looks like another stolen picture on
>the first page. I looked around and there are other pictures stolen from
>other sites as well. I guess they figure it is fine to steal.
>
>
>Steve Williams
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <bill at antique-engines.com>
>To: "The SEL email discussion list" <sel at lists.stationary-engine.com>
>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [SEL] OT Another case of web site rip-off
>
>
> > http://www.oldstylelisters.com/images/listgen5.jpg
> >
> > http://www.oldengineshed.com/graphics/listgen5.jpg
> >
> > Hmmm, something stinks here! He's stealing photos and using them as
>"what
> > not to do".
> >
> > And he didn't even modify it!   81310 bytes exactly!
> >
> > So what's wrong with an install with NO idler??
> >
> > I believe that setup looks fine for what it's intended for, and not
>just
> > saying that because it's a list member either.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > Looks like this is one of them...he didn't change the name of the
>file
> > > either...
> > >
> > > http://www.oldstylelisters.com/lister-generator.html
> > >
> > > Looks just like one on Steve's site at:
> > > http://www.oldengineshed.com/graphics/listgen5.jpg
> > >
> > > Steve
> > > --- Jim French <fbi at insulate.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Hi Steve
> > >
> > > Perhaps if he suddenly had a whole lot of folks pointing out that
>material
> > > on his website was STOLEN, which doesn't give his general business a
>good
> > > image?
> > >  Just let us know which pics they are ....
> > >
> > > Dolly
> > >
> > > Steve Gray wrote:
> > >
> > > Just to let y'all know, the rip-offs continue. It seems the English
> > > engines are the favorite topic, especially the Lister/Listeroid
>family.
> > >
> > > Was just made aware of some clown in Washington state lifting things
>off
> > > my website for his commercial site. No permission, no
>correspondence, just
> > > grab an' go. I was also told of how the guy then proceeds to "bad
>mouth"
> > > the way I had built things in the picture he ripped! I understand
>he's
> > > grabbed from several sites, so be aware, particularly those with
>Lister
> > > based equipment. The website in question is
> > > http://www.oldstylelisters.com
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  Jim French
> > >  fbi at insulate.co.uk
> > >  http://www.insulate.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > SEL mailing list
> > > SEL at lists.stationary-engine.com
> > > http://www.stationary-engine.com/mailman/listinfo/sel
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SEL mailing list
> > SEL at lists.stationary-engine.com
> > http://www.stationary-engine.com/mailman/listinfo/sel
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>SEL mailing list
>SEL at lists.stationary-engine.com
>http://www.stationary-engine.com/mailman/listinfo/sel"

Or ask Steve Gray (SP?) at Steve's Old Engine Shed about Mr Andree.

Or George at utterpower

Or, or, or...

beware...



Doug

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Re: An American Listeroid?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2007, 04:33:26 AM »
Nothing new under the sun here.........

Everyone selling engines from India from "who knows it inc" is doing the best they can with what they can but 100,000 hours thats a lot to ask lol.....

Since we are on the subject of Durability does anyone have a mini Petter from Utterpower?
Some people have emailed me asking how to fix these things or where to get parts?
http://www.utterpower.com/petter.htm
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