Carbon Fiber Push Rods, Oil Sight, Oil Filter test reports

[BruceM]

Second day on the Lister, and I have a few things to report.  I'm lumping them all here instead of hunting up all the original threads cause I'm bushed!

Carbon Fiber Push Rods:
I finished and tested the carbon fiber push rods today:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-110

The stock push rods weight 6.8 oz each, the carbon fiber ones 2.0 oz each.
This is where I should tell you how the engine is now so quiet I had to check to make sure it was running, and I had to turn back the governor as it was running faster, on so much less fuel, etc.  Right?

I'd love to say they were worth the 5 hours I spent (making the push rod ends), but I'm too much of a pragmatist to say that. They do change clackety clackety, to claukety claukety, but that's about it.  Noticeable, but not enough for the bother.

Oil Sight- Sensor
I Tested the oil sight/low oil sensor yesterday, with wierd results.  The new version with oil fill stand pipe didn't work right- when the engine was running, the oil level went up almost 3/4" inch! After some WTF'ing and head scratching, I realized that the trapped air in the (capped) oil fill pipe was expanding when the engine ran and pulled a vacuum on the crankcase.  Today I took it off  and it works properly again. That's progress, right?     You can just see the oil filter inside and below the breather door opening. The oil level sight/sensor works great.

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-111

Oil filter/crank scraper (Hotater II). 

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-112

After noting that the running engine had 1/2" of oil level drop on earlier tests of the oil sight, I decided to wrap the filter fairly close to the crank.  An email from George B inspired this, he mentioned the power loss from having a "taffy pull" of oil following the crank, and sent me a photo of another slow speed machine (3hp) with a crank scraper designed into the sump.

Well, I had to have SOME good luck today, and this is it.  The running oil level with the oil filter only goes down by about 1/8-3/16", slowly over the first 15 seconds of running.  This is the oil filter filling!
No more 1/2" oil level drop!  When the engine stops, instead of immediately going back up, it takes about half a minute for the oil to drain from the (quilted paper towel over 100tpi copper mesh) filter!
So the amount of oil "in the air" seems to have been reduced significantly.

I was slightly chagrined to find that the oil filter is about 1/2" too deep when the sump is full to the crank knuckle but for a prototype, I'm happy.

Cold starts with proper COMPRESSION:
 It wasn't cold today but for the first time I'm getting "cold" starts on the first compression stroke.  So it appears that my work in honing cylinder, milling cylinder from proper head clearance, and hand lapping the valves has helped a lot.      I cannot pull the engine through compression no matter how hard I try- I have to rock it backwards to get the exhaust valve lifter in. This is new for me.

Special thanks to Shipchief, Hotater, Daren, Gerry, Kevin and other good people here for your help and creative ideas.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[SHIPCHIEF]

Love those hi teck Push Rods!
Did you weigh them? Are they lighter than the originals?, They look straighter than my stock ones
Scott E

[BruceM]

Scott, yes, each carbon fiber push rod is 2 oz, originals 6.8 oz.

[hotater]

Bruce---

Great work!!  Fun too, isn't it.   

I should post a picture of my engine after running a couple weeks with no wipe-down.   

It does seep and condense oil over itself and gradually take on an "Indian back shed" look.   

Interesting comments on cold starts and compression.  My engine is just now showing signs of low compression, but I still can't force it through the compression stroke without waiting an extended time for leakage to let it through.  I have noticed several times it takes two compression strokes for it to start cold.  THAT'S unusual for this engine.  It went more than six months without missing a 'first stroke start'.

My head/piston clearance is now .058 (at last check with new head gasket), but I'll change that next clean and look day, unless the re-torque of the head bolts fixed it.  It makes a big difference in starting and 'sound' under load.

Regards the oil sight tube---  If you'll replace the elbow with a Tee with a step-up adapter at the top you can add oil through it and to drain the oil all you have to do is disconnect the sight tube. 
  BTW-  If you should just ONCE leave the plug out of the top of the that TEE you can count on an oily ceiling.  I screwed a pressure gage in mine and got a pulsing three pounds.

IDEA--  Why not rig a crank scraper that directs (higher pressure) oil through a standard screw-on filter.  There should be eight pounds or so of oil pressure if the fluid dynamics are right.  A check valve on the return side should keep the pulses from cancelling each other out inside the filter.

[BruceM]

Hey Hotater,
"Regards the oil sight tube---  If you'll replace the elbow with a Tee with a step-up adapter at the top you can add oil through it and to drain the oil all you have to do is disconnect the sight tube. "

I did this, and the trapped air in the oil filler riser screws up the oil level readings of the sight tube.  When the engine was running with the oil filler riser on a Tee, the oil level rose 3/4".  So I had to remove the oi filler pipe and will add one to one of the access doors, someday.

There does seem to be a lot of force from the downward directed oil off the crank. It it really packs down my filter media.  A scraper could direct that force to a pressure filter.

I tried cold starting by hand this morning just after at dawn, about 16 degrees F, and a few degrees colder than that overnight.  No joy, just a sore arm. Maybe this will improve when my engine is broken in, but even my '85 300D MB diesel has trouble starting on mornings like this  My present home here outside Snowflake is at 5900 feet, my new off grid property is  5400 ft.   Hotater- what's your elevation there at Magic Springs?  I wonder if there's still something not right that my Lister(oid) is not cold starting by hand at these temps?

 I took this as an opportunity to test the new Utterpower glow plug I recently purchased. Screwed it in, hooked it up, immediately started cranking by hand, moved the compression release and bang, she fired on the first compression stroke.  Big grin. This after complete failure with many attempts at hand starting without the glow plug.  It's really a nice design- the VW glow plug element tip is right at the focus of the concave plug end  in the precombustion chamber.

Bravo, George, for this very nice Lister enhancement.

Bruce

[Reno Speedster]

what was the magic number for milling the cylinder?  Mine is apart now and the top of the new sleeve has a very slight ammount of pitting on it so I was planing on taking a little off before putting it back together.

Morgan

[BruceM]

Morgan,  Alas, you'll have to measure your head clearance with two lead solder snippets in the center of the piston, then rotate the crank through TDC and then measure,, as various Listeroids have different specs for head clearance.  You can then adjust the head clearance by adding or subtracting paper shims under the cylinder.  My Metro was so far off that even with all 0.050 of the paper shims removed and a single sheet of typing paper (.003") substituted the head clearance was still not in spec. 

The standard head clearance is around 0.063", I think.  My Metro booklet called for 0.045-.050".
I went under that a bit because of the elevation here.

Bruce McCreary
Snowflake, AZ
2002 Metro 6/1

[GerryH]

Hi Bruce,
I'm not surprised about the pushrods, I had to smile when I first read about the idea. But I am glad you had the balls to try it out. Many of the improvements to a 2000 rpm engine have no purpose on a engine that runs full throttle at a lower speed then most engines idle at.
My engine has a cooling system now. I have put in 20 wht hydraulic oil and ran it and loaded it for 1 hour and then dumped and washed it out. No sand visible - you may remember I found a tablespoon of the stuff.
The magnets had collected some very fine (almost paint like) material and the oil was black instead of clear, This may be washing down the Indian "oil" from hidden spots. Everything wiped clean and then a good high zinc 15-40 oil added. In short runs with the new oil, less vapor from crank breather, but is got to be broken in, yet.

It appears to me that the single greatest improvements one can make to this engine are:
1. re - do the governor for better load control.
2. accurately determine the head clearance and set up for minimum clearance valve to piston, and raise compression as much as you can.

   The best ratio has yet to be determined. I don't accept that these engines are too frail to run at 19 or 20 to 1 compression. In raising the compression by cutting the head plug, I noticed a great improvement in burn and strangely, a lessening of its desire to walk away and leave my shop. Much smoother. I suspect that due to casting irregualrities in the precombusion chamber and differing valve seat depths, I feel the compression ratio is all over the map, and it's a credit to the design that they start as well as they do.
   I have noticed that the governor response sucks on my unit, and is a varying pile of crap in any engine I have seen so far. Today I will start to work of sensitizing it.
   I have a Utterpower glow plug, and have not used it yet, but it's good to hear how well it works.
At the moment I am using an incredibly small wiff of ether and it lights up easily. I believe with the compression maximized, it should start at right down to freezing temp without drugs.

Gerry

[kyradawg]

 Yous a bad mother for ya!

Peace&Love , Darren

P.S Congrats on the rebuild it sounds like she is nice and tight!

[n2toh]

Darren

titainium valves sound like a cool idea, but how would you extend the stems? weld two of them togeather?

What about boring out a carbon fiber tube and epoxy them togeather? or just a carbon tube with a Ti head.

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[BruceM]

Darren,
Plan C:
I don't think you can get enough decrease in mass with messing with the valves.  The  bigger mass is the valve tappet itself (and the cast iron rocker arms)  The tappet is a much bigger (than valves)  chunk of steel, and is easier to replace than the rocker arms.. A composite tappet body with hardened steel face??? Aluminum???

Bruce M

[SHIPCHIEF]

I think valve gear noise is not a factor of the weight of the parts.
Each piece should be clinked with a wrench or something to find out what sound comes out.
The pushrods have a sound, Bruce changed it (for the better) by using tubular carbon fiber.
Scott E

[BruceM]

Darren's assessment was that the Listeroid's notorious valve train clatter, which isn't subtle, was due to the valve not following the cam, and slapping shut.  I think it could be that and/or also the tappet slapping down on the cam instead of following it.  I'll have to try my stethescope and see if it's coming from the head or down by the tappets.

I still think this assessment holds water but I'm no master mechanic.

Even if the clack is at the valve seat, the inertia (mass) of the tappets and other valve train parts are what's keeping the valve from following the cam, I think.  Increasing spring force would fix it but at the expense of valve cam/valve train wear.

[SHIPCHIEF]

Maybe we need hydraulic lifters?
The only way to stop that clatter is to run zero lash.
Scott E