Author Topic: Waste Oil Purifier  (Read 29828 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2007, 05:12:22 AM »
Chris:

you have two things working against you with refrigeration

1. their induction motors draw a butt load of power to start up, usually 3 to 5 times their rated running current, and

2. if it fails to come up to starting speed, the start winding will heat up and kick out the safety, which is just that a safety
not something that is designed to cycle repeatedly.
the problem is the compressor builds head pressure on the start winding, and if it does not have time to dissipate before the next
attempt to start, the unit will be starting against pressure which loads the motor even harder, draws even more starting amps, which in
turn aggravates the whole problem and kicks out the safety again, (wash, rinse and repeat sort of thing)

hotaters suggestion of unplugging the unit for an hour is a sound suggestion, this gives the unit time to equalize pressure, cool down the safety
and make for an easier start.

i have a little fridge about 2 ft cube, it run's at ~2 amps, but pulls over 15 to start up!!

i would imagine their is also a power factor shift taking place that adds even more problems to startup.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Incredilion

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Culprit Found!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2007, 03:16:58 AM »
Bob & RCA,
Thanks for your help, I appreciate the information.
 I started it up again, and applied all the loads again & went straight to the freezer & unplugged it. Still had the same something pulling her down.....
 Went into the panel & started the process of elimination.
Here's what I found:
We had an addition put on the house in '97. It's one room, a living room, and evidently we must have been out of breakers because he installed one of those split breakers, where you have 2 15 amp breakers (that are smaller in size) coming out of a spot where normally there'd be a single 10 or 20A breaker.
 Anyways, that was the initial culprit. I tracked down what the deal was, and one side of that breaker was/is feeding the lights in that room, the overheads. When thrown alone, no problem.
 The other one though, boy was that the one. Come to find out, it went to right here, where I'm sitting. To our UPS. That has about a (lot) of things plugged into it.
 When the UPS was disconnected, problem disappeared.
So.....
 I'm thinking UPS sees power interrupted & comes on. I enable Lister & power comes back. UPS decides all is good, tries to both feed normal power to all devices plugged in & also recharge itself- at the same time. The draw, like I said, went from 5-6 amps on one leg to 12-15, instantaneously. To the Generator's credit, it only went down to 58HZ, but I'm supposing that's enough to have the UPS decide that it's not going to start?
 I dunno.
 In any case, I've got an electrician coming out this week. We'll fix that circuit, and once off the grid probably get rid of the UPS, as I'll be on an inverter with large batteries.
 Again, thank you all for your help- it's much appreciated.
Chris
 
 

rmchambers

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2007, 04:10:04 AM »
Ah a UPS.. you never mentioned you had one of those in the house!  And the symptoms you're describing are exactly how they work too.  What kind is it?  if it's an APC perhaps you can change the sensitivity a bit so it doesn't take over until the power gets a bit dirtier.

Having a huge battery bank and a top rate inverter is really just an expensive UPS.  The batteries make the difference.  On a UPS if you do constant runs on battery they won't last long.  The proper deep cycle batts you use for inverters can take more of a cycling and still recharge nicely.

Splitting breakers isn't necessarily bad.  Better than what I found in my house when I bought it, two separate branch circuits being fed from a double ganged 30amp breaker.  Sometimes you scratch your head and wonder "what were they thinking".

RC

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2007, 04:19:31 AM »
RC-
You know, I would have never thought about it being the problem.
 It is an APC, so maybe I can change the sensitivity a bit. My wife told me she could hear it trying to start, then kicking out over & over.
 The batteries/inverter I have are:
2- 24V 875AH Forklift Batteries & a Magnum 4448 Inverter Charger. 
 My idea is to run the gens in the daytime, & run the batteries at night. We'll have to see how it goes, but I have aother set of batteries coming soon, so I'll have 4 total. Man, those batteries  are HEAVY!!! 1800 pounds each. My little Kobelco Mini-Excavator works hard to deal with 'em.
 I was looking at how they did that, (split the breakers) and it looks like they used the same neutral... this is no good, right?
 

rcavictim

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2007, 07:01:39 AM »
I have had problems with my big UPS on the computer not liking the power provided from my genset in the past and therefore cycling in and out continuously, draining it`s batteries in the process even though the generator is supplying sufficient energy in the primary mains circuit.  Fortunately it likes the power that I now get from my VW genset, thinking it is every bit as good as the store bought electricity.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dualĀ  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

MikeyT

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2007, 02:37:27 PM »
I was looking at how they did that, (split the breakers) and it looks like they used the same neutral... this is no good, right?

This is acceptable if the breakers are on separate phases, but NOT ok if they are on the same phase.

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2007, 03:43:25 PM »
RCA-
I think that's the deal with my UPS, too. It just deosn't LIKE the power from the Lister. I wonder what it's tolerances are? The worst I saw cycles get was 58.2, and I'd have thought that was good enough. Oh well, I'll try, like RC said, to try to change the parameters that make it accept or not accept power.
 
Mikey-
I really believe that hey are on the same phase. It's a breaker that's the same size as the other ones, with 2 real small (1/2 size) breakers in it. The way my panel is designed, I don't think that that breaker could get power from both phases, physically. I'll look at it again (AFTER I get off my computer) ;-).
 If so, I'm assuming that one of the loads just need to be put on the other phase, right?
Thanks,
Chris

rmchambers

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2007, 04:12:55 PM »
RCA-
I think that's the deal with my UPS, too. It just deosn't LIKE the power from the Lister. I wonder what it's tolerances are? The worst I saw cycles get was 58.2, and I'd have thought that was good enough. Oh well, I'll try, like RC said, to try to change the parameters that make it accept or not accept power.
 
Mikey-
I really believe that hey are on the same phase. It's a breaker that's the same size as the other ones, with 2 real small (1/2 size) breakers in it. The way my panel is designed, I don't think that that breaker could get power from both phases, physically. I'll look at it again (AFTER I get off my computer) ;-).
 If so, I'm assuming that one of the loads just need to be put on the other phase, right?
Thanks,
Chris

No you're right, if it's the single size breaker (one position on the panel) but effectively split into two mini breakers each with a trip arm then it is on the same phase.  Two get both phases you need a breaker that spans 2 breaker positions.  Each single breaker position is on the opposite phase as it's neighbors and the one across from it.  This is the way Square D panels work which is what I use in the house/garage.

RC

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2007, 05:28:04 AM »
I took a couple of samples from the Purifier into a Lab in Spokane yesterday.
They called me today, and I figure you guys'd get a kick out of this.
 I took two samples, one of unfiltered oil, for a baseline, and another that went through the Purifier one time.
 The lab tech tells me that I must have labelled them incorrectly, as the one that was marked "unfiltered" was cleaner than the one marked "one pass". I KNEW I didn't mark them wrong.
 So, I started asking questions.....found out that a lot of the contaminants in the oil looked like "varnishes". After we spoke for a while, we both came to the conclusion that what (probably) happened is that the inside of the system had a ton of unclean stuff, varnishes included.
 So, I dirtied up my oil by running it through the Purifier.....

We both figured that what I should do is just run the machine through a few cycles & let the machine clean itself up.
 A small note:
10,000 Parts Per Million water is the same as 1%. (I know the math dictates this but I still thought it was interesting.)
Chris (still workin' on it).
 

Doug

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2007, 06:31:57 AM »
Chris:

1. their induction motors draw a butt load of power to start up, usually 3 to 5 times their rated running current, and

i would imagine their is also a power factor shift taking place that adds even more problems to startup.

bob g

Depending onthe rotor design most induction motors will draw in this range on start up. You highest starting current single phase will be with a cheap split phase ( the kind of induction motor with no capacitors ) your best starting performance is still a repulsion start induction but these haven't been made for nearly over 40 years for ecconomic reasons ( not practical to build, too much copper and parts ). Cap start Cap run are the best choice comprimise between starting torque and running efficiency.

There are also several classes on rotor type normaly only seen in industrial poly phase. Type gices you the best efficiency and lowest slip but the highest draw on start. B type general purpose and most common. D and E ( high resistance rotor and double cage but I may have the letters mixed up ) are special high resistance desinged to give extra starting torque but at the price of low efficiency and poor load regulation. The I believe there is an F type used for fire pumps and its designed to grind its guts to death draw low current on a start up and not stop turning untill the building burns down around it ( not a good choice for the off grid home ).

Power factor is also an Issue. ST heads with harmonic exciters can't don't have any feed back system to increase the field current, so an Inductive load makes the voltage dip and the line current goes higher.

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2007, 08:06:05 PM »
UPDATE!!!!
Not that it's worth anything at all.....(Depression sets in....)
 I finally got back to messing around with the oil purifier & found that here was a bad breaker in the (simplistic) controls. So, I bypassed it, and voila! It runs for as long as I want to now. The real problem came from the idea that the Chinese folks use 220V, so instead of changing out things like lights on the controls to 120VAC, they installed a transformer...you can figure out the rest.
 So, I ran oils through the machine, and took samples at 3x, 5x, 8x & 10x. Took them into the lab, and they came back with results that were let's just say....bad.
 They said that the machine wasn't removing anything at all. It's really hard for me to believe that, being that the filters ARE in there & I know the oil is going through them.
 The lab tech that I spoke to told me that in a lot of instances the filtration systems like this need to run for a minimum of 14-24 hours before they begin to filter correctly. I don't begin to understand this, but I will certainly attempt to make it reality. I sent emails to China, & got back a response that was far less than adequate.
 So, the war goes on. I believe that the machine can actually clean up the oils, to what extent I don't know. But I'm not giving up until I make it work, one way or another.
Chris
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 10:08:10 PM by Incredilion »

Doug

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2007, 08:12:19 PM »
That must have realy been disapointing....

Don't give up and keep us posted.

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2007, 10:16:26 PM »
Thanks Doug, I really appreciate that.
 I just believe that the filters in this thing are well large enough to be able to really filter well, but it is AWFULLY disaoppointing to talk to a lab & hear that news.
 Like I said, I won't quit till it works- and right.
Chris

Doug

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2007, 01:13:12 AM »
We spent years trying different ways to draw the tars and crud out of cracked fuel.

Just wish I had of taken some interest in the process rather than just bitch about the havock and harm to my electrical bits. We probably had answeres of value but theplant is gone and so are the guys who knew...

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Incredilion

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Re: Waste Oil Purifier
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2007, 01:21:23 AM »
Did finally get some kind of answer from across the pond- they want to know what the water content is. I told them I have no odea, becuase I know that it varies like hell, some waste oils have a lot some have a little. I told them, in the end, probably less than 3% overall, but they advertise that the machine should remove waters/particulates to 100PPM for water and down to 2-5 microns for particles. It's like I said earlier, no where near that right now.
 We'll see what they come up with, but I do wonder if it's true that I need to excercise the hell out of the filters in order to get them to start working right. Hell, I don't know.