Author Topic: Electric Start  (Read 15451 times)

rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2007, 02:23:49 PM »
Obviously so, and what advantage does this bestow? Weight? The machine properly installed weighs on the order of tons.
Cost? Perhaps, but that can't be much more than $150 or so, any gain there would be very modest.
Reliability? An oversized motor would likely be more reliable than a smaller one.
Effeciency? Maybe, but as usage is very brief any gain would necessarily be very modest, perhaps even hard to measure.
Designing counter to the general practice is interesting and can be valuable, but my own experience and observation, as described, leads me to hold the opinion that it's best to spin the machine up to near operating speed befor bringing the fuel pump to run.

Best of luck.

Phaedrus

well, actually a lot of advantage except maybe weight. You have a lot wider choice of motors, maybe even to using something you have so you dont have to buy anything. Obviously 600 rpm would be the ideal starting speed, but by design, they start just as good at a lower speed. The more you can gear it down the less strain which raises the reliability on all of them.

The two motors I mentioned at the beginning of the thread I beleive were 100 and 200 dollars approximately. The 150 you mentioned was about in the middle. Granted I am spending several grand here out of being pissed at the power company and being interested in these engines and what you can do with them, but 150 bucks is still a considerable amount of money. There is a whole lot of things I can do with that 150 bucks. If anybody out there doesn't have anything to do with 150 bucks, send it to me. I'll find something to do with it LOL.

Part of ther reason for starting this thread is to get people thinking about how to do things.  Not everybody here has a lathe they can chuck up a flywheel or the expertise to make a shrink fit. I am sure there are people here that don't have electric start because it costs too much. A lot of us are here to learn something from those who know more and have more experience with these motors. I thought it would be nice, rather than to say something won't work, to put our heads together and figure out how to make it work and for a way for somebody who doesn't own a machine shop to be able to build it.

I am not trying to come up with a better mouse trap, just a different way to catch a mouse. Same here, I am just looking for something different for the people who don't have all the options Some might have a couple of motors in the junk pile and like me, don't realy know if they will work or not. I am not bad at ideas but I lack the expertise to put them together. That means a lot of trial and error.


I had a lot of fun building a hydrogen generator, but I had a whole lot more fun building one with hand tools and stuff from the hardware store and the junk pile. Even better was that one of the neighborhood kids liked it enough to build one for a science project. He won a prize and kept working on it. That was when he was 12. He is 16 now, has plans for college and is now building a fuel cell. If he had needed a complete machine shop to build his first hydrogen generator, it never would have been built.



 


phaedrus

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 02:46:21 PM »
Picture of add-on motor drive for potter's wheel. They want more than it's worth, imho, but the picture is useful in spuring the imagination. More valuable is the little wheel - made of what seems to be the right stuff! The wheel itself is a "wear item" and replacable - and that's the only thing I'd buy, I'd take the rest out of my junkpile.

imho adding a ring gear is unnecessary if one plans attended starts

http://www.bigceramicstore.com/Supplies/wheels/thom_stu_kw_motor.jpg

if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

Stan

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 09:03:44 PM »

phaedrus

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2007, 12:13:49 AM »
That is a very cool starter, Stan! Thanks. Saw something like it used in the "World's Fastest Indian". Bitchen!
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

Stan

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2007, 02:23:32 AM »
The entire Arrow engine model C can be had for slightly more than $10,000.  ;D
Stan

wirenutrob

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2007, 04:58:31 PM »
Stan -

I like that Arrow 990 starter I did some investigating and turned up a price $1,340. I also learned that this starter is designed for engies much larger than ours. I own the 20/2  and he said the starter would not have any trouble turning over this engine. I think the best thing to do is to use their design or foot print and build a smaller version. It really is a nice unit and gives me some good ideas.
Rob

LMWatBullRun

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2007, 07:14:22 PM »
HAve a PM 28V motor generator that I think I will use both as a DC genset and as a starter.
Lister electric start; 20-2 listeroid; yanmar ts-50C; 82 volvo diesel; 90 dodge-cummins TD; case 580.

rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2007, 09:19:32 PM »
HAve a PM 28V motor generator that I think I will use both as a DC genset and as a starter.

I have a permanent motor dc gerator made from a motor rigged like that on my backup generator. The main reason it worked was that it is a 195 rpm motor and I had to gear it down an awful lot to get it to turn slow enough as a generator. if that works, give us the info on the motor.

mmm Maybe you could have some way to change gearing after it starts too.

Doug

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2007, 06:14:47 AM »
High inrush starting currents on Pm motors tend over time to demagnetise the field....

A large starting resistor to limmit statrting current to about 3 times name plate will help reduce this effect and give a less harsh shock. When things start to roll drop aout the resistor for max power....

Serries motors are much better suited to this job but harder to find.

Doug
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rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2007, 12:32:07 PM »
That briggs and stratton etek motor might be just the thing for that
12 -  48 VOLTS DC
VOLTAGE CONSTANT: 72 RPM PER VOLT
TORQUE CONSTANT: 1.14 LB-IN/AMP (0.13 NM/AMP)
MAXIMUM MOTOR CURRENT: 330 AMPS FOR 1 MINUTES
MOTOR WEIGHT: 21 LB
MOTOR OUTPUT: 15 HP MAXIMUM, 8 HP CONTINUOUS
BRUSH LIFE:
65 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 3000 HOURS
100 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 2000 HOURS
150 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 500 HOURS
MINIMUM NO LOADED SPEED
ROTATED 90º CW
D-D
ROTATION IS CCW AT THE SIDE OF DRIVING END, ACCORDING TO THE
PEAK EFF. 88%
6.5 AMP
3700RPM
48VDC MAX, 150A CONT
BRIGGS & STRATTON
MILWAUKEE, WI U.S.A.

rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2007, 04:55:50 PM »
There is also a motor called a Lemco that is even more efficient, like 90% efficient. They make excelent generators too.

rcavictim

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2007, 05:25:04 PM »
That briggs and stratton etek motor might be just the thing for that
12 -  48 VOLTS DC
VOLTAGE CONSTANT: 72 RPM PER VOLT
TORQUE CONSTANT: 1.14 LB-IN/AMP (0.13 NM/AMP)
MAXIMUM MOTOR CURRENT: 330 AMPS FOR 1 MINUTES
MOTOR WEIGHT: 21 LB
MOTOR OUTPUT: 15 HP MAXIMUM, 8 HP CONTINUOUS
BRUSH LIFE:
65 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 3000 HOURS
100 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 2000 HOURS
150 AMPS CONTINUOUS - 500 HOURS
MINIMUM NO LOADED SPEED
ROTATED 90º CW
D-D
ROTATION IS CCW AT THE SIDE OF DRIVING END, ACCORDING TO THE
PEAK EFF. 88%
6.5 AMP
3700RPM
48VDC MAX, 150A CONT
BRIGGS & STRATTON
MILWAUKEE, WI U.S.A.


WoW!  I had a look at that motor and count me impressed!  I would love to have one for my EV motorcycle project.  It weighs just 20 lbs and can make 20 HP for short periods.  The price ($550?) makes it way too exotic IMO to use as a starter motor.  That would be like using the Hope Diamond as a paper weight.   ;D
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2007, 06:45:06 PM »
Quote

WoW!  I had a look at that motor and count me impressed!  I would love to have one for my EV motorcycle project.  It weighs just 20 lbs and can make 20 HP for short periods.  The price ($550?) makes it way too exotic IMO to use as a starter motor.  That would be like using the Hope Diamond as a paper weight.   ;D
Quote

Yeah, definately drooling material. They use them in a lot of EV vehicles and those battlebots. I was checking out other motors that would fit the same aplications, and the price is not all that bad considering the efficiency and what you get for your money.

Actualy, if you conside a seperate top of the line starting motor and a good DC generator or permaqnent magnet motor, it is not too much more. Brushes are cheap. long life and easy to replace too. I am seriously considering getting one just to see what it will do.

I want to hear about your motorcycle. dont disrupt the thread though, email me through the group.

rbodell

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2007, 01:46:04 PM »
Yeah, I pretty much gave up on the ring gear setup especially with your coment about the blood and body parts. Just thinking about a shirt sleeve getting caught in the gear send shudders up my spine, much like waking up after a drunk and finding what is next to me.

listeroidsusa1

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Re: Electric Start
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2007, 11:56:51 PM »
A fairly easy way to have electric start is with a ford long shaft starter motor ($75 on ebay) and a 12 v A/C compressor clutch. Its a pretty simple job to turn a taper on the motor shaft for the clutch. Yje clutches are available at any junkyard in single and double v belt as well as serpentine.

Mike