Electric Start

[rbodell]

I noticed that there has not been a whole lot of research into rigging up electric starters. The ones who have have come up with some pretty complicated stuff.

I found this motor
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007051321073665&item=10-1839
If you put a 2" pulley on it or better yet, a jack shaft, with 50 amps no load, it seems like it would turn a 6-1 over pretty easily. I don't imagine it has real bearings in it but all that would have to be done is to put ebarings on a shaft and run them end to end to take the load off the shaft.

I also found this motor
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007051321073665&item=10-1899-A
it is going on 3 HP and 36 volts.  It does have a bearing in one end at least.

Any thoughts about using either with an idler pully to engage and disengage it to get an engine rolling over fast enough to start.

[dkwflight]

Hi I don't see why a pulley and vee belt wouldn't work to start one of these things. The main problem would be keeping the belt on as the engine accelerats.
A rubber roller or wheel might be better,

Hand cranking is not difficult unless the engine is quite cold.

Arrow has a portable starter that looks nice but very pricey
Dennis

[rbodell]

Actualy when I wrote that I was thinking about a serpentine belt and a hand operated idler pully, but now that you mention it, maybe a vee belt might actualy be easier top get off once it starts. Just loosen the idler and it falls off.

Actualy winter was what I was thinking about. I also have a bad back and I know there will be times I won't be able to crank it. I was thinking about getting one of those expensive ones, but I figured there was a cheaper way to do it that would work just as good. I have a couple of motors laying around and I found a couple more at the surpluscenter.

[okiezeke]

rbodell.
Mike M makes a quality starter ring gear.  Fairly easy to mount.  Uses a ford 4000 starter motor.  Might be a lot easier than re-inventing the wheel.
Zeke

[rbodell]

where can I see one? Ill keep it in mind if I can't come up with something from what I have in the shop.

[dkwflight]

hi
Here is an interesting option

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/Boulton-Paul/Starter003.jpg
Dennis

[okiezeke]

rbodell.
I have pics of the ring gear on my Lovson 20-2 thread.  A few pages back from the last page.  Its very heavy and quality made.
Zeke



Steel plate is 5/16".  Heavy steel forged pipe flange off the shelf from McMaster-Carr.  All grade 8 bolts with locking nuts.  Machining cost, about 150.00.

[rbodell]

see there, that is what I mean, use what you got on hand.

hi
Here is an interesting option

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/Boulton-Paul/Starter003.jpg
Dennis

[rbodell]

I saw that. Very nice too. I was actualy thinking about doing that, but I thought about bumping up against it when it was running. It is still one of my formost options though. Thanks.

rbodell.
I have pics of the ring gear on my Lovson 20-2 thread.  A few pages back from the last page.  Its very heavy and quality made.
Zeke

[phaedrus]

Seems to me that a cheap 110 vac electric motor (from harborfreight?) with a "tire" on the shaft could be mounted so that it normally resides parallel to the crank axis with the "tire" a few cm from the flywheel. In starting the motor would be swung toward the wheel contacting it and spin the engine up. At speed the compression release would be dropped and the motor released to return to its normal position. With attention to the ratios one could avoid overspeed. My wife has a gizmo rather like this attached to her pottery wheel, and I think a fella could just buy the gizmo from a pottery supply outf - they sell 'em as add-ons. As to the power to start - the battery bank-inverter set provides plenty of power to do this for us, and I would imagine it's about the same for many other people. The little "tire" on the gizmo my wife has is kinda special, sticky, tough, with a steel bushing, key broach, and setscrew. That's a nifty thing to find.

[rbodell]

Just wondering, does anybody know how fast you have to turn a lister for it to strart. Does 75 to 80 rpm sound out of line? I looked at a couple of videos and it was hard to tell, but people seemed to be cranking faster than 1 rev/second.

Seems to me that a cheap 110 vac electric motor (from harborfreight?) with a "tire" on the shaft could be mounted so that it normally resides parallel to the crank axis with the "tire" a few cm from the flywheel. In starting the motor would be swung toward the wheel contacting it and spin the engine up. At speed the compression release would be dropped and the motor released to return to its normal position. With attention to the ratios one could avoid overspeed. My wife has a gizmo rather like this attached to her pottery wheel, and I think a fella could just buy the gizmo from a pottery supply outf - they sell 'em as add-ons. As to the power to start - the battery bank-inverter set provides plenty of power to do this for us, and I would imagine it's about the same for many other people. The little "tire" on the gizmo my wife has is kinda special, sticky, tough, with a steel bushing, key broach, and setscrew. That's a nifty thing to find.

[phaedrus]

I've wondered about that question. If finding the minimum necessary speed to start I suppose one would first make the machine as cold as the coldest weather expected, then experiment with cold-starts at gradually increasing speeds. I expect the relationship is roughly linear until one gets close to the cloud point of the fuel.

I guess, if spinning the thing as slowly as possible and still getting it to start is the goal, then the starter speed ought to be regulated according to the temperature. This is a goal?

This question, necessary speed, strikes me as mildly interesting but practically more or less unimportant because it is a simple matter to spin the engine up to rated speed with an electric motor. That ought to permit starts in the worst weather that the engine can start in, unless the engine were pre-heated in some way.

Because the governor and fuel rack would see this speed as full speed the injection rate at the beginning of engine self-operation would be minimal, thus minimizing, one would expect, cold start emissions.

The large diesels I have worked with, whether they use a compression relaese or not, spin up very fast. The Enterprise engines I have worked on actually ran on compressed air at rated speed - the air being admitted to each cylinder by a timed pilot valve distributor and relay valves in each head. Those are 500 hp per cylinder. Takes a big air tank.... The EMD 16 and 20's, 12 V 92's....electric motor starter, big 'un, and they lit off fast!

It strikes me as just as much work to build a gizmo to spin an engine slowly as it is to spin one fast.

Just my hunch here, based on some long ago experience, but I think the stress on the piston and rings is less when the engine is started, the pump control moved to "run", after the engine is at or near rated speed. My hunch? What was I doing? I was a kid back in 1965 trying to find out how slowly I could crank a horizontal single cylinder diesel and still get it to start - and I managed to break some rings and create a reall expensive mess. That was the generator at Monument Valley Ranger Station, the Tribe ate the cost, lucky me!

[rbodell]

yeah but the slower you have to turn it over, the smaller the motor you need to do it with

[phaedrus]

Obviously so, and what advantage does this bestow? Weight? The machine properly installed weighs on the order of tons.
Cost? Perhaps, but that can't be much more than $150 or so, any gain there would be very modest.
Reliability? An oversized motor would likely be more reliable than a smaller one.
Effeciency? Maybe, but as usage is very brief any gain would necessarily be very modest, perhaps even hard to measure.
Designing counter to the general practice is interesting and can be valuable, but my own experience and observation, as described, leads me to hold the opinion that it's best to spin the machine up to near operating speed befor bringing the fuel pump to run.

Best of luck.

Phaedrus

[okiezeke]

Bumping up against ring gear when engine is running,

I wouldnt want to do this, so I'm planning to put the ring gear inside the flywheek on the starter crank side.  This will also allow for more compact starter motor mounting.  Dont think mounting the flywheel 2-1/2 in. farther out the crank will hurt any.

 My ring gear assy weighs around 100 lbs, so will act as more flywheel weight, which should be a good thing.  l Hard to tell if contact with ring gear at 650rpm would be much worse that contact with a flywheel.  Either could make a permanent impression on a fella, and probably make a big mess in the generator room.  Blood and body parts are such a pain to clean up.

Zeke









Zeke