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Author Topic: Maximum running angle  (Read 19187 times)

rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2007, 10:21:11 PM »
r bodell
Met a guy in the keys you'd a liked.  Had a 50' twin engine salvage boat.  Tried to go under a bridge on auto pilot.  One enging died.  Made a direct hit on a concrete abutment.  Didnt hurt the bridge a bit.  He still thinks he's the best boat capn on the planet.

Nope, I dont know anything about petter oiling.

Zeke

LOL yep Doesn't surprise me a bit. If he is one of the regular towing services, these guys are usualy licensed too. I have lonmg since been in favor of everybody that operates a boat should have a license that requires them to show they can actualy operate a boat. I met a captain once that had never set foot on a boat. All he did with his license is sell letters qualifying peoples seatime so they could take the test. I reported him.

Funny thing, people who would never go speeding through a playground will go liek the wind through a swimming area, sometimes where their own kids are playing. People who would never drink and drive a car will load their family in a boat and drive the boat drunk. You hear that a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money, well I think a boat is a floating coffin waiting for an occupant. people just do not realize how dangerous boating is. I think it is pretty close to flying an airplane.

rmchambers

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007, 12:12:33 AM »
Flying tends to be a lot quicker from ops normal to hell in a handbasket though.  And when your engine stops (assuming you only have the one) you are now a glider and better know where you're going to put down.  With the boat at least you can float around a bit and fix the problem or wait for seatow to show up with their hands open.

phaedrus

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2007, 04:55:54 AM »
Well, yes, sort of and sometime, imho. But some sailing can present very fast changes that allow very little time to react. As a little kid - 6, almost 7 I began sailing by myself, first in an old Schock design - a "snowbird", then later a Lido 14, taking a Star out a few times too and I thought I was a fair sailor. As an adult there were various boats, and again I thought I was a fair sailor. Then I learned what it was to try to sail in the Sacramento system. (Both a steel-barge riverboat and an old mac 25). In ripraped waterways with turbulent currents in both wind and water, bridges, traffic, including ship traffic that takes up just about the whole damn channel and pushes a slug of water up in front, highly variable depth, snags, and unmarked "submarine obstructions", it is not a trivial matter to lose power, whether the power one loses is wind or engine power. Powerboats "sail" in the strong afternoon westerlies, and sailboat keels "fly" in very non-linear currents. Under such conditions it is essential to always have a plan, and keep the plan realistic at all times - there's never any "sea-room". The plan often involves an engine, which I assure you does make a difference. Though I cannot speak to sailing long reaches at sea, I know that sailing in San Francisco Bay or off Port Hueneme or at Newport was nothing compaired to the Sacramento system. The fisherfolk along the banks are even known to take occasional potshots! (though I don't think anybody actually wants to hit anybody)
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haganes

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2007, 08:13:45 AM »
regards rbodell

do i understand you advocate having an engine on a sailboat which you cannot use when the sails are up?  what happens when you have engine driven refrigeration, or your batteries are low and you need to charge them so that you can continue to use the ssb radio? 

simply put.........it would be difficult to find any production sailboat manufacturer which would put an engine in a sailboat which could not be used with the sails up.  so, the question is if YOU were building a sailboat - would you install an engine which could not be used with the sails up.

just for the record i have never had to motorsail out of a lee shore situation, nor do i know anyone who has had to.

you are very correct in that keeping schedules are a dangerous thing - and that is why commercial fishing is one of the deadliest professions.

rbodell is not correct that "power boat" have two engines.  you will find two very divergent schools of thought on this subject.  there are several forums on the internet covering this subject and you can discover that many (if not most) long range motor passagemakers (range exceeding 2000 miles) have only one propulsion engine.

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rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2007, 11:36:19 AM »
regards rbodell

do i understand you advocate having an engine on a sailboat which you cannot use when the sails are up? 

Where did I say that. I really wish you would not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about not being asble to use an engine when the sails are up.

what happens when you have engine driven refrigeration, or your batteries are low and you need to charge them so that you can continue to use the ssb radio? 

You gotta be kidding me, are you for real? Have you ever set foot on a boat before? I can not beleive you have never heard of solar panels, wind generators or tow generators. Any wannabe sailor knows about them?

simply put.........it would be difficult to find any production sailboat manufacturer which would put an engine in a sailboat which could not be used with the sails up.  so, the question is if YOU were building a sailboat - would you install an engine which could not be used with the sails up.

I suggest you learn to read

just for the record i have never had to motorsail out of a lee shore situation, nor do i know anyone who has had to.

Then what were you refering to  about using your engine two miles off shore? You mean you just do not know how to tack or that you did not have the proper sails to sail against a wind strong enough to heal your boat over enough that the keel was up enough to let you make too much leeway? The reason for having reef points and storm sails if to keep the boat upright and ballanced in strong winds. That is the exact point I was making about using an engine to make up for not having the proper equipment or the knowledge to use that equipment. If in fact you actualy are a captain, you obviously do not have any sailing experience.

you are very correct in that keeping schedules are a dangerous thing - and that is why commercial fishing is one of the deadliest professions.

rbodell is not correct that "power boat" have two engines. 

LOL, as a matter of fact, short of small outboard and io pleasurecraft, and a lot ofcomercial fishing boats, just about any pleasure craft of any size has two engines. Let me see now, you don't know how to sail and you have never seen a twin engine boat, exactly what are you a captain of? Just what license do you hold. This should be god.

you will find two very divergent schools of thought on this subject.  there are several forums on the internet covering this subject and you can discover that many (if not most) long range motor passagemakers (range exceeding 2000 miles) have only one propulsion engine.

Lets me see now, you just said "rbodell is not correct that "power boat" have two engines.". and since "many" or "most" do not cover ALL, what source of power do the rest have? While you are at it would you please mention a couple of manufacturers of pleasure craft who make boats in three 35 to 80 foot class who do NOT make a twin engine boat.

captain steven


rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2007, 12:12:16 PM »
yeah but that is pretty much convenience and local knowledge.`As far as getting a keel boat off a sand bar, unless you are barely on there the underpowered engine isn't going to do much good. When I was a kid I made a bunch of bucks getting big sailboats (30-50 foot) off this sand bar out in front of my house. All I hade was a 10 foot rowing dingy, a coil of line and a block. I'd just wait till they gave up getting themselves off and a few trys from passing power boats. Once the settled down to wait for the next high tide I just rowed out and offered to get them off for twenty bucks.

 

Well, yes, sort of and sometime, imho. But some sailing can present very fast changes that allow very little time to react. As a little kid - 6, almost 7 I began sailing by myself, first in an old Schock design - a "snowbird", then later a Lido 14, taking a Star out a few times too and I thought I was a fair sailor. As an adult there were various boats, and again I thought I was a fair sailor. Then I learned what it was to try to sail in the Sacramento system. (Both a steel-barge riverboat and an old mac 25). In ripraped waterways with turbulent currents in both wind and water, bridges, traffic, including ship traffic that takes up just about the whole damn channel and pushes a slug of water up in front, highly variable depth, snags, and unmarked "submarine obstructions", it is not a trivial matter to lose power, whether the power one loses is wind or engine power. Powerboats "sail" in the strong afternoon westerlies, and sailboat keels "fly" in very non-linear currents. Under such conditions it is essential to always have a plan, and keep the plan realistic at all times - there's never any "sea-room". The plan often involves an engine, which I assure you does make a difference. Though I cannot speak to sailing long reaches at sea, I know that sailing in San Francisco Bay or off Port Hueneme or at Newport was nothing compaired to the Sacramento system. The fisherfolk along the banks are even known to take occasional potshots! (though I don't think anybody actually wants to hit anybody)

captfred

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2007, 12:51:37 PM »
Quote
rbodell is not correct that "power boat" have two engines.  you will find two very divergent schools of thought on this subject.  there are several forums on the internet covering this subject and you can discover that many (if not most) long range motor passagemakers (range exceeding 2000 miles) have only one propulsion engine

Shucks, and I thought "powerboats" had 3 engines, like the one I was drivin' today. ;D

What about catamarans?  Last time I looked, the cat I drive several nights each week has two really "bitchin'" naturally aspirated Luggers - love those engines.  Personally if I was looking for a "classic" small engine I'd go for a Volvo - new either  a Yanmar or Kubota. ;)

Cheers, Fred

rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2007, 01:40:20 PM »
Quote
rbodell is not correct that "power boat" have two engines.  you will find two very divergent schools of thought on this subject.  there are several forums on the internet covering this subject and you can discover that many (if not most) long range motor passagemakers (range exceeding 2000 miles) have only one propulsion engine

Shucks, and I thought "powerboats" had 3 engines, like the one I was drivin' today. ;D

What about catamarans?  Last time I looked, the cat I drive several nights each week has two really "bitchin'" naturally aspirated Luggers - love those engines.  Personally if I was looking for a "classic" small engine I'd go for a Volvo - new either  a Yanmar or Kubota. ;)

Cheers, Fred

and I bet 2K miles isn't a problem either. Well, it might be for him if he needs to do it under power LOL.

Ill tell you what, i got a lot fo respect for you cat guys, one mistake and those things are a whole lot more stable upside down than right side up. No room for mistakes there.

phaedrus

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2007, 05:55:48 PM »
Sandbars are not a problem to get off, as you say, rbodell, particularly in tidal estuaries, but sandbars can be dangerous in traffic situations. But I'm sorry, I did not mention sand, you know. There's not much sand to be concerned with in the Sacramento - mud and rock, and old tress and wrecks, mostly. What you choose to ignore includes collisions and grounding on rock and worse caused by uncontrolled occurrences - these are very much easier to avoid, (note avoid) when there's an operable engine. Avoiding casualties is not realistically a matter of convenience, rather it is a matter of legal responsibility and common sense.

Sailing in congested and limited situations loaded with latent kinetics obviously calls for all the armamentarium one can muster. People get injured. Sail can fail from various causes and sometimes creates uncontrolled power -- which can be very dangerous. Delay in medical treatment can be the deadly result of failure to secure the full available armamentarium - including an engine. Obviously there are numerous situations in which an engine is "going to make a difference". Really, it's obvious to almost everybody.

"Local knowledge" is often the only kind that makes any difference, and it seems to be lacking in some people.

I don't believe that you, rbodell, have experienced this, as, if you had, you could not logically take these positions. (This is a compliment to rbodell, by the way, as it implies that he is logical.)

As most boat types know, doubling the number of engines doubles the probability of an engine failure, even more, actually, as people ignore problems thinking that they have a "spare". Therefore twin setups are a selling feature, primarily. I have had numerous pleasure craft, sail and power, and have never had a twin. On an serious voyage losing an engine on a twin means reduced control and can mean disaster, twins means reduced efficiencies and increased fuel requirements, fire danger, etc. Therefore sensible folks buy singles. At least they do around here. It may be different somewhere else - perhaps there are many inexperienced people in, for example, Florida - don't know. It's a foreign country and I won't visit there.

Singling out a slightly related idea and addressing that rather than an honest centralized reply is a technique in classical rhetoric. I believe that it's an aspect of paralipsis. Some readers might think that rbodell is engaging in this technique. Worse, some people might take the view that he has fallen into the ad hominem fallacy. Generally the resort to ad hominem is considered to be a good indication of a failure in logical argument.

Although rhetoric is inescapably a part of any usage of language, what seems to be more important in a discussion group that address technical matters is dialectic, which is what I am attempting here. I believe that it would be productive for us to move toward that.
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rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2007, 08:58:51 PM »
Sandbars are not a problem to get off, as you say, rbodell, particularly in tidal estuaries, but sandbars can be dangerous in traffic situations. But I'm sorry, I did not mention sand, you know. There's not much sand to be concerned with in the Sacramento - mud and rock, and old tress and wrecks, mostly. What you choose to ignore includes collisions and grounding on rock and worse caused by uncontrolled occurrences - these are very much easier to avoid, (note avoid) when there's an operable engine. Avoiding casualties is not realistically a matter of convenience, rather it is a matter of legal responsibility and common sense.

Sailing in congested and limited situations loaded with latent kinetics obviously calls for all the armamentarium one can muster. People get injured. Sail can fail from various causes and sometimes creates uncontrolled power -- which can be very dangerous. Delay in medical treatment can be the deadly result of failure to secure the full available armamentarium - including an engine. Obviously there are numerous situations in which an engine is "going to make a difference". Really, it's obvious to almost everybody.

are you trying to put words in my mouth, reading what you want to read or is it that you just don not know how to read? Did I not say that NOT having an engine was stupid. The point of this conversation is whether you NEED an engine to make a sailboat handle properly. Don't go jumping my ass for something I did not say.



"Local knowledge" is often the only kind that makes any difference, and it seems to be lacking in some people.

I don't believe that you, rbodell, have experienced this, as, if you had, you could not logically take these positions. (This is a compliment to rbodell, by the way, as it implies that he is logical.)

No it isn't a compliment, I have been in a lot of unfamiliar places. That is where you stay in marked chanels and use your depth recorder, reduce speed and as soon as possible talk to the locals and get some local knowledge. Anybody who does not is a moron. You might try it yourself.

As most boat types know, doubling the number of engines doubles the probability of an engine failure, even more, actually, as people ignore problems thinking that they have a "spare". Therefore twin setups are a selling feature, primarily. I have had numerous pleasure craft, sail and power, and have never had a twin. On an serious voyage losing an engine on a twin means reduced control and can mean disaster, twins means reduced efficiencies and increased fuel requirements, fire danger, etc. Therefore sensible folks buy singles. At least they do around here. It may be different somewhere else - perhaps there are many inexperienced people in, for example, Florida - don't know. It's a foreign country and I won't visit there.

Florida probably is for you. There a lot of people go out on the gulf and the at;antic ocean. They who do, do not have the option of drifting ashore like they do on the creek behind your house. Let me enlighten you since you have decided to take a completely different rout and leave sailboats all together.. There are two main reasons people buy twin engines. One because if one quits, you have another one to get home with. Sitting out on the open ocean or gulf without power is the act of a fool. The wisdom that entices somebody to avoid two engines because twice the chance of problems is the wisdome of a fool. It would be a whole lot more prudent to have reduced power and maneuverability than NONE. Only a cheap skate would take cheaper operating expenses over safety.

I think the second most commom reason for getting twin engines is from people like you who instead of larning how to operate their boat on one engine and how to use fenders and spring lines, choost have two engines they don't know how to operate.


Singling out a slightly related idea and addressing that rather than an honest centralized reply is a technique in classical rhetoric.

You might take some of your own advice

I believe that it's an aspect of paralipsis. Some readers might think that rbodell is engaging in this technique. Worse, some people might take the view that he has fallen into the ad hominem fallacy. Generally the resort to ad hominem is considered to be a good indication of a failure in logical argument.

Although rhetoric is inescapably a part of any usage of language, what seems to be more important in a discussion group that address technical matters is dialectic, which is what I am attempting here. I believe that it would be productive for us to move toward that.

Maybe if a couple fo morons would stop putting words in my mouth orrect them and stop making foolish coments that need to be corected, I wouldn't have anything to reply to. There again I suggest you take your own advice.


phaedrus

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2007, 09:39:32 PM »
Thank you very kindly Mr. R. Everyone can see that you have now established a clear pattern of ad hominem responses.

What I neglected to say about this fallacy is that a consistent resort to it is a reliable indicator that the speaker has exhausted his logical facilities in opposition and now actually agrees (but is not happy with) with his opponent. This delights me. Nice to be appreciated. (It was easy, though.)

In an effort to establish, by attempting to elicit an ad hominem response, that an opponent actually agrees with one's position the techniques of rhetoric, including paralipsis, are perfectly acceptable. You fell for them.

Worse still, you fell for the trap I set when I complimented you for your logic. By claiming that it was not a compliment you have made it clear that you accept the idea that you are not logical. I believe it.

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rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2007, 10:15:05 PM »
In other words you like to play games and try to make people look dumb. That is easy with me using a bunch of big words, I only have a 6th grade education. Of course when you make statementys like a smart person doesn't by twin engines because there is twice the chance of having a problem, you simply show your own stupidity. If you got an ego thing and have to show you have a big vocabulary, fine. Go for it. I don't have a problem with not being educated. I know my own faults and I don't have a problem with it. I didn't learn to sail from a book. I went out there and made all the mistakes. I cvame here to elarn about listers. I made that clear when I came here. You want to make me look dumb, ask em about listers.  I will make you look real smart because I probably won't be able to answer any of your questions. Don't try to make yourself look smart with games, twisted half truths and big words. Just like when you were a kid in elementry school. It made you feel good to be able to push around the little kid and make him cry. You knew better than to take on the big guys that would kick your tale. Well this kid doesn't cry, he just laughs at you along with everybody else. you had to take one little statemant about the depth of an oilpan and twist it around and try to make somebody look small so you would look big. Now you look like a bigt fool.
.

Thank you very kindly Mr. R. Everyone can see that you have now established a clear pattern of ad hominem responses.

What I neglected to say about this fallacy is that a consistent resort to it is a reliable indicator that the speaker has exhausted his logical facilities in opposition and now actually agrees (but is not happy with) with his opponent. This delights me. Nice to be appreciated. (It was easy, though.)

In an effort to establish, by attempting to elicit an ad hominem response, that an opponent actually agrees with one's position the techniques of rhetoric, including paralipsis, are perfectly acceptable. You fell for them.

Worse still, you fell for the trap I set when I complimented you for your logic. By claiming that it was not a compliment you have made it clear that you accept the idea that you are not logical. I believe it.

pax vobiscum

okiezeke

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2007, 10:29:57 PM »
Children, children,

Remember we promised to play nice.  Discussing(even disagreeing) issues is playing nice.  Attacking each other is not playing nice.  We're all, more or less, old farts with lots of knowledge to share.  I learn something here every day.  Let's please continue to educate each other and keep egos under control.

Write on the blackboard 100 times "I will not get irritated and call people names"  (even if the %^$$%&& deserves it)

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rbodell

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2007, 11:28:27 PM »
Hay I play by the other guys rules. You talk nice I talk nice to you. If somebody els wants to be a fool and put words in my mouth, no problem, I willl help them. You want to talk about listers, fine, I'll talk about listers. all my replies in ths thread have been replies to somebody elses post. Start from the beginng and see.

sid

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Re: Maximum running angle
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2007, 04:26:26 AM »
 I was only gone for a week and we move from one ton blocks to sail boats/what a forum/can hardly wait until tomorrow and see what we can argue about//sid
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