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Author Topic: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection  (Read 11051 times)

Reno Speedster

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Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« on: November 26, 2005, 03:27:54 AM »
Well, I got inside my Ashwemagh 6/1 today with the digital camera and it looks pretty good.  I don't see any obvious signs of casting sand but I plan on pulling it apart to be sure.  The red paint in the crank case looks like it was slapped on by hand an in a hurry (lots of missed spots in the top of the case) but,  from what I can see the cam and the lifters look to have a proper finish and the cylinder wall and the timing gears look fine.  It is destined for a working life powering a 5kw generator out on my ranch so I want to make sure that it is 100% before it goes to work.  I'm waiting to tear it down until I get the valve guide puller from george.  He is also sending me a kit for the injector rack which is supposed to make a big improvement when running a generator (not quite sure what it is actually but it was cheap).  Now if the rain would just let up so I can pour the concrete slab for the power house.  Take care all.

Morgan

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2005, 06:46:12 AM »
Morgan,

Good on ya, Mate!  I think my engine was painted by the same guy who didn't want the paint to drip on his hands.  Those "holidays" are where I found loose casting sand, so whoever cleaned up the casting might have not bothered to lay it on its side.  The corners of the casting under the deck that were paint-free were where I found the sand.  Just poke at them with a screwdriver to see if the bumps are casting flashing or sand.  And definitely check out the wrist pin, too.

While it's apart, you can clean the gaskets and coat them with silicone gasket cement and hang them up to dry.  That way next time you take the engine apart you won't damage them, and I think they seal better, too.

My lifters came out very easily with a pair of vice grips with an old rag wrapped around the lifters. 

Please clue us in on what the governor kit consists of.  George might have found a spring with better actioin than the stock one.  If so, I want to get one.

Another thing you can do is to pull the oiling hole cover over the back end of the camshaft (left side of engine when facing the pushrod side).  I drilled a 3/32" hole in the cap and pressed in and epoxied a 16 gauge nail to direct any oil into the camshaft oil hole, though after seeing how much oil gets thrown around, I don't really think it was really necessary.

Quinn

Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2005, 04:43:44 PM »
Good ideas Guinn.  I'd Like to pull the engine down to the bare case and have it hot tanked and preassure washed to make sure its clean then give it a coat of real red glyptol (instead of the house paint (?) used by the Indians).  I don't quite understand the arrangement on the end of the camshaft but I want to make sure that its getting enough oil.  I have an old drip oiler laying arround maybe I could install it to insure enough oil to that bearing?  I'll let you know what the kit is when it comes (it was shipped yesterday).  I took off the water outlets and was surprised how small the openings are  (they are blocked with casting flash) so I'm going to open them up with a die grinder.   

Morgan

Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2005, 09:35:08 PM »
I took the time to pull the head and the cylinder this morning and found a problem.  One of the "curclips" that keep the wrist pin in was broken and the broken part was floating in the end of the wrist pin.  Not to bad but there seems to be two pits in the cylinder wall possibly from the broken part (they are about at TDC for the wrist pin and right where I found the "floating" part.  The pin can not move and there is no scoreing in the cylinder per say but I'm not thrilled.  I need to get it in better light to see how bad the pits are.  Interestingly, there is no cross hatching visible in the cylinder so it has been run for a while or it was not properly honed, again more light needed.  Otherwise it looks OK, a little rust  on the face of the piston and inside of the head (very light) and evidence if a slight water leak in the head gasket into one of the stud galleries (Light rust on the stud at the head gasket).  Will pull the piston and Rod a bit later and check on them.  Time to send a note to George about the availability of cylinder sleaves.


Morgan

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2005, 05:07:15 AM »
Morgan,

Too bad about the circlip.  That's why it's good to tear these engines apart.  You can also make sure that the ring end gaps are staggered when you reassemble the beast.

For comparison sake, attached is a pic I took of my bore so you can check it against the way yours looks.



Now let's see if this pic appears in my message.  Wish me luck.  Push the button, Max!

Quinn

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2005, 05:11:03 AM »
No, I didn't think it would.  >:( 

 Hmmm . . . let's try it this way:


Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 07:21:19 PM »
Just an update, and a complement for George.  After looking carefully at the sleeve in good light I found that there were actually 5 dents in the sleeve and some light scoreing.  The dents were at the location of the wrist pin at BDC and TDC and appear to have been caused by the broken circlip striking the cylinder wall when the piston reversed direction.  The largest of the dents was a little less the 1/8th of an inch long and 5+ thousandths deep, much too deep to hone out.  I contacted George to ask about buying a sleeve and rings and he told me that he would send them out for the price of the shipping.  Excellent service and a stand up guy.  I'll be tearing it down more this weekend so I'll let you know what I find.


Morgan

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 07:44:21 PM »
Yeah, George is like that.    ;)

Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2005, 12:04:56 AM »
I continued the tear down today and there is some good news and some bad.  The good news is that the crank and the rod bearings look fine.  The bearing has a couple of little bright spots showing some polishing from the run in but they are very small and look pretty much like what happens to babbit bearings when the are run in.  The bad news (predictably) is the valve lifters.  I pulled the guides with Georges tool ( a little big and requireing shimming but it worked fine otherwise).   The inlet lifter was clearly rotating during the break in and it had a pretty good finish, however it shows quite a bit of wear indicating a possible problem with the finish of the cam or the hardness of the lifter.  The exhaust lifter was clearly not rotating and was grooved during the break in.  At the least they will both have to be reground but I want to find out how hard they are before I have it done.  I am going to pull the cam and take a look at it to see if there are any burrs etc which might have contributed to the problem and I'll have to get the guides sorted out. Another problem is the idler gear which seems to have quite a bit of slop in it.  I can slide it back and forth on the shaft (not a giant problem) and even wiggle it a little on the shaft (indicating a loose fit of the gear on the shaft which my require bushing the gear or making a new idler shaft).  There is also fairly significant slack in between the idler and the cam shaft (which George warned me might be a problem).  I'll set up the magnetic base and get a reading with the dial indicator so I know how much I'm working with.  Wish me luck!

By the by, what exactly is the threading on these?  Standard, Metric, Whitworth, what?   I want to replace the studs on the cam gear cover with bolts (making it easier to take off) but I'm not sure what to buy.  I need to pull out my thread gauge and start figureing, but if someone already knows....

Take care

Morgan

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2005, 01:42:50 AM »
Reno,

I replaced the nuts ont he cam covers with acorn nuts, and it seems they were standard 5/16" thread.  I'd just put two nuts on a stud, back it out and take it to a hardware store and see what fits.  The nuts supplied seemed awfully loose, so I replaced most of them, assuming the studs were right.

Yeah, I was a little troubled by the slack in the gears, too, but I keep thinking that my standard for comparison is derived from working on motorcycle engines that turn 14,000 rpm.  I can't imagine a slow speed engine is that critical, though there's no reason you can't go through your 'roid and bush gears, etc.  It has to be better.

I expressed my concern about the way the timing marks were stamped into the teeth of the idler on my 'roid.  George had one hanging around that he sent me which was only very lightly stamped. so I put that one in.  It seemed to also fit tighter on the idler shaft.  Seems they're not all the same.  I'd really like to poke around inside a genuine British built engine to see whether this shoud be a concern.  I think that as the engine accelerates the gear lash action you hear when cranking it over decreases just because the mass is all rotating in the same direction. 

Hey, take some pics as you go and post them.

Quinn

hotater

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2005, 01:54:44 AM »
Reno---

The studs are common 5/16 NC and 3/8 NC.   I replaced everything with ny-loc nuts and new studs in several places.  The cam cover needs a couple 3/8" bolts instead of studs to give removal clearance, but they can leak oil.

On the pinion---  the pinion shaft nut is near two o'clock to the crank shaft and looks like just another TBR cover stud.  Most have a locking tab behind them to keep the nut from coming off.  (Talk about WRECK!)
  Disengage that tab and see how loose the nut is.  Some shafts have a burr or some taper in them and once the engine is run it loosens up.  If you need a bushing it'll go on that shaft between the gear and the case as a spacer.  I've posted a picture of one set up right.  The usual protocol is to set up gears in the order they receive power,..... so the pinion is adjusted to the crank, then the cam is adjusted to the pinion.

I found 59-61 Rc on the tappet faces and 48-50 on the cam lobes on mine and they're pretty much perfect after 2800 hours.

I think George has a deal going with his machinist for tappet squaring and grinding and other lathe/mill/grinder jobs.  The great thing about the Lister(oids) is that everything is "square".  The simplest of machine set-ups is needed to make or repair just about any part on one.....

....someone will point out, I'm sure:      If its so simple, why didn't the Indians do it?

 Good question.   :o
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2005, 03:45:03 AM »
Take a look at me little website for some pictures of the teardown and my very off grid site in rural Nevada.  It started out as a bare piece of ground and I am building it up.

http://web1.greatbasin.net/~reno-speedster/


Morgan

Reno Speedster

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2005, 10:14:29 PM »
Well, I'm strpped down as far as I can go without pulling the flywheels.  George is sending me a gib key puller on loan so I can get it down a bit further.  He is also sending me a new idler gear (evindently there have been a few problems with them on the Ashwemaghs).  I discovered one of the reasons that there might have been a problem with the lifters...the cam lobes actually had paint on them!  It aqppears thet the inside of the case was painted after assembly!  Pretty odd. 

I ordered one of George's lifter / lifter guide kits and I will clean up the cam before reassembly.  I have thought about taking it to my machine shop and having them put a proper polish on it (they are pretty good with old machinery having done a lot of work on Model Ts and As (including my 1926 speedster, hence the alias).  I marked the cam gear before removing it but I am a little puzzled as to how to get the proper timing on the idle gear when I replace it.  There are a few days before I have to tackle the job though.  In the mean time I'll pull the head all apart, clean out the waste I generated during the water outlet grinding and maybe lap in the valves just so I can say I did it :)  I m also going to start work on the ehaust system.  I'm not going to run the stock fuel tank so I am going to run a "U" along the exhaust side of the head and fabricate a bracket that will mount to the existing tank mounting holes to support it.  From the end of the "U"  I'll run flex pipe to the wall and a muffler mounted on the outside (pointing towards my annoying neighbors).  At this point I feal like the kid who took apart the alarm clock and was a little worried about getting it back together.... Still, there are a lot less parts than my speedster, or the 43 ford Jeep I built.  I'd just like to have the job done.

hotater

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2005, 03:25:04 AM »
Reno---

As daunting a task as it *looks* the Lister is really simple to put back together.  I feel pretty good when I only have a washer or so left over.  ;D

The pinion is just a go-between 'idler' for the cam and crank, so it is the cam and crank gear that must  be in time with each other and the pinion can really fit anywhere and be right...BUT, they're marked so proper orientation to the other two gears are right.  I took mine apart and the gears weren't marked at all!  Here's the valve timing.  Find and mark TDC and BDC on the flywheel closest to the fuel pump and then divide the circumference into 18 equal segments.  Those marks will be 20 degrees apart.

The intake valve opens      5 degrees  BTDC  (Before Top Dead Center)

The intake valve closes     15 degrees ABDC (After Bottom Dead Center)

The exhaust valve opens   55 degrees BBDC  (Before Bottom Dead Center)

The exhaust valve closes  20  degrees ATDC   (After Top Dead Center)

Start with the fuel pump cam lobe pointed at eleven O'clock and the engine at TDC with both valves closed.  Using the figures above it's easy to see if you're one tooth off (and it wont run that way  :( ).  once you see the valves opening and closing at the proper place on the flywheel you can replace the cam cover and fuel pump tappet, etc.  When I replaced the cam and pinion gear not long ago I got it timed as described above, *after* I tried to guess at it and missed by a tooth.
  I mark my stuff with an auto center punch.  No grinding dust and it only takes one hand and no power.
Be sure to time the fuel pump accurately.  That's really important at high altitudes.  I've tried up to five degrees each side of 20 degrees BTDC and 20 degrees seems to be the magic number for 5500 feet.

Look close at the simple stuff---- the manufacturers of some of these engines can do the DUMBEST things for no apparent reason.   There QC test is audio only, I think.  If they QC guy can hear in run without bad noises it must be *perfect*!
  ...the pinch slot on my rocker shaft mounting block was too thin so the rocker shaft was able to move a little and loosen up.  (I saved it).   Casting flash had stopped up the cooling galleys on one side of the head...big dings in the head and cylinder deck. A point on the fuel pump tappet 'fixing screw'.
    It pays to look close and often for the first couple months as it runs.  I have an IR heat gun that I wore out a battery on...just shooting one place after another seeing where the heat came first and how hot each part got.  That gave me a base-line for future reference.  I found sludge in the cooling galley of the head closest to the exhaust manifold by noticing the temperature was climbing in that area by a degree a month.
  These engines are just a natural HOOT to work on,  IF you don't mind getting as greasy as a bilge oiler.  Everything about it as laid out vertical and horizonal and the mechanical linkages are all intuitive.  There are no hidden, super-secret, rocket propelled parts to zing off over the fence or fancy snap rings and special tool only fasteners.  The whole engine  can be taken apart with two Crescent wrenches and a screwdriver.

  Word of caution::  The Indians don't mind mixing up parts...the valve keepers on my engine are different from side to side.  Just because two bolts of the same size are side by side does NOT mean the same wrench fits both nuts.  Look out for the little spring in the top of the fuel pump.  It comes out with the nut and then will fall out and bounce into the nearest hiding spot.
Gunsmiths lost part trick-- STRONG flashlight laying on the floor and sweep the beam around.  The tiniest of irreplaceable parts become immediately visible....unless your ankle deep in shavings.   :-\

READ and look at ALL of George's CD...not just the meaty part about improving them.  He's got some truly great ideas and diagnostics contained on that one disk

Bottom line-- IF the fuel lines are free of all air, and the fuel pump is timed right, and the injector works (squeeks), IT WILL CRANK and run.  If it doesn't, look at what YOU did wrong.  They are not at all tempremental.  Mine fired (without the muffler on it) when I was just screwing around wondering how much compression it had!!  The FIRST time I'd ever pulled it through a compression stroke.... No fuel pump on it, no nothing! And  it fired off the WD-40 and 30 weight used to put it together.  Talk about LOUD!

Nice place you have there!!  I used to travel that area selling to the gold mines...stark, beautiful country with a LOT of horizons.  Look out,  I saw a spider that wouldn't fit in a Basque soup bowl east of Hawthorne one time.  :o
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

quinnf

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Re: Ashwemagh 6/1 inspection
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2005, 04:51:10 AM »
Morgan,

TDC compression on Ashwamegh #204 corresponds to the keyway on the crankshaft pointing straight up.  When the keyway is up and the fuel injection pump cam lobe is at 11:00 you're there.  Just mesh the gears and start tightening things up.  No need to mark the flywheel for this, you can just eyeball it.  One tooth off and the cam won't be anywhere near 11:00.  It's not even as subtle as replacing a distributor on a 4 cylinder gas engine.  You can be off a tooth on a gas engine and the engine might start, but on the 'roid, or I suppose any one lung engine, forget it.

Don't worry, you'll do fine and learn a lot about your engine in the process!  Great pics on your website, too.

Quinn