Forced air heating with a Lister

[Procrustes]

I have yet another scheme to justify the purchase of a Lister.  By law my utility cannot set up net metering with a WVO system, so that's out.  I'm interested in solar power as well and may eventually invest in a battery bank, but don't want to depend on it.  I spend twice as much on natural gas as I do on electricity, mostly for a forced air furnace.  Heat production is promising.

Has anyone considered how to use a Lister specifically for heating with forced air?  I know I can use the coolant and exhaust heat for radiant heat, but first I have to load the generator.  For instance it would be easy to wire a circuit from the genset to a 3500 or 400kW heating element.  The problem is how to do that safely?

I'm not sure I'll do this if it means buying a heat pump.

[n2toh]

If your primary interest is heat have you looked into waste oil fired furnaces or burners?

[Joe]

Wire in conventional electric base board heat.
I would be very careful with any use of exhaust inside the home.

Joe

[Procrustes]

If your primary interest is heat have you looked into waste oil fired furnaces or burners?

I have a readier supply of wood than vegetable oil so it wouldn't be economical.  Also the Lister is conspicuously missing in your plan.

[Joe]

How much wood at what cost? I've heated the house,basement,garage for the last 25 years on wood...oil is the backup...  The Lister has some capability along those lines it all depends on total demand that will be on the system.
Our Lister crate alone kept up warm for two days....

Joe

[Procrustes]

Joe,

Yes I considered baseboard heating.  I'd probably favor radiant heating for the kitchen floor.  Probably not as efficient, but I do love a warm floor.

The cost of the wood is only cutting, splitting, etc.

How much wood I have is an interesting question.  When I purchased this lot the deed appeared to read "4.25 acres".  Now, via the magic of a law called the CAO, I have two acres.  I still pay the same tax on the other 2.25 acres mind you, but I'm not allowed to touch it.  Sometimes when I feel brave I sneak in there and look around.

I look to you all for a rationale for buying a Lister and what happens?  You take my wife's side.

[n2toh]

What is CAO?

my primary interest in a Listeroid is cheap power from free WVO, the heat is just a bonus.

if you just want heat from wood look at this. www.newhorizoncorp.com

[Procrustes]

What is CAO?
/quote]

Don't worry, it probably has nothing to do with you.  I meant this: http://www.cdfe.org/king_county_protest.htm

[guest161]

ouch! Don't ya just love "simms" and his lofty ideas? I have brightwater going in nearby.

With all the wind blowing today, certainly a listeroid is a great back up generator.

You could just use the engine to heat your domestic hot water through a heat exchanger, and use the electricity generated to heat up another water tank, one that supplies the hot water for your hydronic heating.

Myself, being more of a rough cut type than the finish type, I just put a truck radiator with a box fan in the far end of a hallway and heat my small house, using an insert only when I want to get really warm.

[binnie]

Try a note to John F.(a member here) on heating by forced air...wood & Gen combined. I am not sure how he does it but he has a large spread and very comfortable home heating system. Worth your asking. Binnie

[Procrustes]

Thanks fuelishnot.  I like the 450 gallon heat flywheel you mentioned elsewhere.  I've only recently convinced myself that electrical battery banks are worth their 20% efficiency loss.  Now I'm wondering if the same principle holds regarding heat.

[GuyFawkes]

worth mentioning that pump diesel contains sulphur (US diesel quite a bit) which makes some funny and acidic compounds of allowed to condense inside a cold exhaust, eg heat extractor, and can rot the metal quick-ish

[solarguy]

My present system uses coolant heat to preheat domestic hot water.  A normal natural gas water heater adds heat as needed.  It works so well I am planning a much larger and more ambitious project for the next house.  The six horse can only make so much heat.

I will stop using a gas water heater for make up heat.  This will dramatically reduce our natural gas use.  I will also set up a 1,300 gallon insulated water tank (home built of course) which is electrically heated by the Lister.  This tank will have an approximate steady state temperature of 120-140F.  One copper coil heat exchanger immersed in this tank will provide all domestic hot water, with pre-heat from the coolant heat exchanger just like now.

A second copper coil heat exchanger will provide heat for PEX in-floor radiant heat for the whole house (home built of course).  The house will be super insulated and will need approximately 1/3 of the heat of a normal house.  By making these changes,  I will get a much bigger load for the new big Lister (18hp? 20?, still number crunching…) which will give us much more useful amount of heat.

AND, I will get a new Listeroid out of the dea.  My wife is a saint too.

Finest regards,

troy

[Procrustes]

My present system uses coolant heat to preheat domestic hot water.  A normal natural gas water heater adds heat as needed.  It works so well I am planning a much larger and more ambitious project for the next house.  The six horse can only make so much heat.

I will stop using a gas water heater for make up heat.  This will dramatically reduce our natural gas use.  I will also set up a 1,300 gallon insulated water tank (home built of course) which is electrically heated by the Lister.  This tank will have an approximate steady state temperature of 120-140F.  One copper coil heat exchanger immersed in this tank will provide all domestic hot water, with pre-heat from the coolant heat exchanger just like now.

A second copper coil heat exchanger will provide heat for PEX in-floor radiant heat for the whole house (home built of course).  The house will be super insulated and will need approximately 1/3 of the heat of a normal house.  By making these changes,  I will get a much bigger load for the new big Lister (18hp? 20?, still number crunching…) which will give us much more useful amount of heat.

AND, I will get a new Listeroid out of the dea.  My wife is a saint too.

Finest regards,

troy

Very interesting.  How do you use coolant to preheat hot water?  I considered a loop with my hot water heater, but I worry about overheating the water.  I guess this isn't much of a concern with a huge, low-temperature tank.

Also why copper coil heat exchangers instead of circulating water directly from the hot water tank?

Am I correct that no water will go in or out of the 1300 gallon tank?

[solarguy]

Dear Procrustes,

You are correct in your analysis.  No water ever leaves the 1,300 gallon storage tank.  It's just a heat bank.  The advantage is the tank doesn't have to be pressurized.  I can build it out of plywood and 2x4's with cheap EPS foam for insulation.  It will be lined with cheap durable EPDM pond liner. The cost to build one of these is very very reasonable compared to commercial stuff that size.  So I must use copper heat exchangers to move the heat in and out.  A pressurized tank that size costs a fortune and won't fit through a regular door.

My present heat exchanger is tiny by comparison, just a retrofitted 30 gal gas water heater.  What used to be the flue now carries 3 gallons of 50/50 antifreeze.  Since it was originally a water heater, it has the over temp/over pressure safety valve in case the SHTF, but it takes very little supervison.  A shower and a load of laundry is plenty for 5-8 hours of further operation. 

The mongo tank would take weeks to over heat I think, if ever.

Finest regards,

troy