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Author Topic: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?  (Read 8960 times)

blhfla

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Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« on: October 17, 2007, 08:59:29 PM »
Has anyone run a blend of good, clean waste veg oil and used motor oil?

Also posted in WVO forum.........just in case

Ian

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 09:28:29 PM »
Yes is the simple answer to the question but I do not think it is very enlightening!

I do not run the blend intentionally long-term as I have only a little UMO. As I get nearer to an engine decoke or overhaul, I use up my UMO and I do this by adding it to the WVO tank.

The Listeroid runs just fine. But UMO is dirty as hell and I run it just before an overhaul as I can then give everything a good clean before switching back to WVO on start-up.

Regards,
Ian

blhfla

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2007, 03:46:55 PM »
Hey Ian -

What mix do you suspect you are using, ie, 50/50, etc? Performance wise how does it run on the blend? How often do you decoke/overhaul (how many hours runtime)? How do you clean the Listeroid during overhaul/decoking? How do you mix the oils, just dump the processed UMO into the VWO tank or premix (if so how do you do that)? How do you process your oils? Do you add heat to your fuel (like with a flat plate heat exchanger) to thin it before the IP?

Sorry for the barrage but I am very curious to know your methods and results. I expect to have abundant UMO resources and somewhat less so WVO resources so I expect I will be using a blend of 75/25 UMO/WVO or perhaps greater (or less, I'll see). I will be cleaning the oils with a centrifuge to get them as clean and dewatered as feasible (I know the UMO can be very dirty).

TIA for your response and letting me pick your brain.

Ian

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 05:55:23 PM »
blhfla, well, here goes....

The blend is probably around 50 / 50 to start with but could easily get to close on 100% as I get to the end of the UMO stock.

Performance does not change as far as it is possible to tell. Veggie seems to have less diesel "knock" but the knock from UMO is not as pronounced as straight kerosene.

Being a tinkerer, any excuse will do to take it apart - but the plan is to oil change, decoke, overhaul at the end of each winter season.

The Listeroid runs in an acoustic hood so the air temperature around the engine is at about 70 degrees C (160 F) most of the time it is running. This means that any oil vapour not ingested through the air filter is deposited on the engine and then can polymerise and turn to resin. To clean, petrol or diesel is a good start. Internally, the coke is just scraped off with whatever can be used to scrape it from where it has deposited itself. Mostly, I use a wallpaper scraper or pallet knife.

There is no mix protocol. Whatever just gets unceremoniously dumped into the tank and the mix is whatever it turns out to be. Mixing the bulk doesn't happen intentionally either.

All fuel is passed through a 5 micron filter through gravity. Veggie is allowed to stand for at least a week before filtering. After filtering, the clear veggie goes into the bulk tank (1000 L) and the non-water gloop goes into the solid chip fat tank. The water element is discarded.

The fuel supply system is quite sophisticated (relatively speaking). The bulk liquid veggie tank is NOT heated. On exit from the bulk tank, fuel flows into a heated filter (150 C, 300 F) and then along insulated trace heated pipes to a T. At the T, valves allow either the liquid veggie oil to flow on, or instead, to feed heated chip fat (lard) through to the engine. The solid chip fat is heated in a 110 L day tank with 2 x 3 kW electric heaters which takes the fat to 80 C and then it is passed through a heated filter (150 C, 300 F) to the T. After the T, the fuel takes 5 turns of a loop around the exhaust pipe just after the exhaust manifold (about 300 C, 570 F) and then to the engine mounted fuel filter which is heated to 100 C (212 F). After the injector pump, the high pressure line is heated to 200 C (390 F) as close to the injector as possible.

I have heard people go on at length about cleaning fuels before use and if you want an engine that never wears out, then I guess it needs to be done. My philosophy is that around 99% of these engines in use around the World in very hostile conditions and using poor quality and contaminated fuel just keep on going - maybe not optimally, but they do the job required of them. (For instance, I cannot think of an occasion where I can imagine a Listeroid having an air filter installed outside of the Western World, or, for that matter, an oil change or lubrication more than once a year if it was lucky). So, if my engine wears out the fuel pump, or injector because there was too much colloidal water or acid in the fuel, then it is only a few pounds (dollars) to replace the necessary bits and everything is good for another season.

You may be able to take out the large chunks and water with a centrifuge but it will not appear to be noticeably cleaner to the eye. Carbon is colloidal in the oil and you will not spin it out.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Doug

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 09:36:13 PM »
 These are Diesel engines not waste oil engines so you have to give some thought to care and feeding.

Oil/fuel has to be clean and heated or thinned to flow or you will damage things.
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Ian

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 10:47:58 PM »
OK Jens - I tend to ramble as I write so I hope it covers everything in the end... (I guess it is going off the original topic too and I am about to commit the sin I hate to see happen to my threads - a thread hijack.) Sorry in advance.

I was originally seduced by the write ups about Listers at 650 RPM being "comforting" and almost silent. At steam rallies where old engines were out in the open, on the top of a hill, unloaded and with silencer-free exhausts pointing straight up into the air, I would agree that the sound was minimal.

Boy, was I disappointed when I started up my first engine at my house.

Clearly, I had been seduced by the Marketing and hype of Listers and I had failed to do my homework. Originally, the plan was to run the engine in a lean-to at the side of the house. But the amount of vibration, and the noise meant that plan B was to install the engine as far away from the house and neighbours as possible. So, a shed was built, massive base poured and the whole thing sound insulated.

The engine was placed in the shed and started up. It was still way too loud. There was no way it could have been run at night in still weather conditions without annoying me or the neighbours. So a massive (expensive) exhaust system was installed; it did a reasonable job but still not good enough.

The acoustic hood was an unplanned necessity. Looking back on it - most of the final thing has been an unplanned necessity. The hood is constructed from 6 mm ply with 3 inches of dense sound insulation mounted on the inside. Each panel has an "exoskeleton" which is used to join adjacent panels. The sound insulation slabs are slightly larger than the plywood so that there is no gap for the sound to exit when assembled. The hood is much too heavy to move as a complete unit. It is assembled outside of the engine frame but cuts across the ST alternator mid-body. The ST pumps air into the enclosure with its fan. The Listeroid breathes this air. The starting handle has a cut-out hole which is now left open rather than the planned swing-down door to close it off when the starting handle is not in use. The starting handle hole does not make much difference to the sound levels.

A removable "door" allows access to decompressor, and fuel lever. Once the engine is running, the door is re-affixed.

Water pipes, fuel pipes, electrics, etc penetrating the hood are minimal and easily packed out with acoustic insulation.

The engine is now quiet enough to leave running at night without disturbing anyone.

The hood does not allow "tweaking" so you need to be a start it up and walk away sort of person. There are loads of potential downsides like not seeing an oil or fuel leek if one develops - but without the hood it wouldn't be running at all. It is sub-optimal but a necessary evil.

With regard to pictures - I am not someone who generally takes pictures of things. Some people are great at documenting everything they do with a picture as they go along - and it is a great help to others - but I am just not made that way. At the moment the whole shed is still in the middle of a "work in progress" moment so it is a real mess and the acoustic hood is broken down and stored away in pieces all over the place. Maybe if I remember, I may take a few pictures and put them up on Coppermine in the next few weeks.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

blhfla

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 11:20:55 PM »
Oil/fuel has to be clean and heated or thinned to flow or you will damage things.

Doug - I run a two tank VO system in my VW TDI with coolant and electric heating, but that is straight (cleaned) WVO, not a mix. I was supposing the (cleaned) UMO would thin the WVO sufficiently for the Listeroid's more tolerant IDI and lower pressure injection system. But I haven't ever used UMO as a fuel so I was doing just that.....supposing. So you believe  even a mix (of whatever proportion) of WVO/UMO will still need heating? If so, perhaps a FPHE would suffice?

You may be able to take out the large chunks and water with a centrifuge but it will not appear to be noticeably cleaner to the eye. Carbon is colloidal in the oil and you will not spin it out.

Ian - Are you sure the carbon (soot) will not spin out? At 3450 RPM an 8" rotor centrifuge produces about 1300Gs. I thought that would be sufficient, but I have never tried it (I haven't even built the centrifuge yet) and of course I was hopeful. What results have you seen with the centrifuge?

Internally, the coke is just scraped off with whatever can be used to scrape it from where it has deposited itself. Mostly, I use a wallpaper scraper or pallet knife.

So you basically "abrase" the deposits away? No solvents used, just elbow "grease"?

to feed heated chip fat (lard) through to the engine. The solid chip fat is heated in a 110 L day tank with 2 x 3 kW electric heaters which takes the fat to 80 C and then it is passed through a heated filter (150 C, 300 F) to the T.

How does it perform on the lard? Do you notice any more coking from using lard (as far as you can determine?

So, if my engine wears out the fuel pump, or injector because there was too much colloidal water or acid in the fuel, then it is only a few pounds (dollars) to replace the necessary bits and everything is good for another season.

Exactly my philosophy. Parts are cheap and easy to replace and the fuel cost savings WAY more than make up for money, time and effort spent.

Please keep us posted on how well the centrifuge works for cleaning - I am especially interested to hear if there is any significant colour change between input and output.

I doubt I will see any color changes but who knows? I plan to pump through a washable 10 micron steel mesh filter into black 55 gallon drums and use heat and gravity settling for a week in the Caribbean sun, then pumping through a sub 1micron Frantz type TP filter, and then slowly gravity feed (for max cleaning exposure) a centrifuge spinning 3450 RPM which should also filter to less than 1 micron. If the centriguge will not remove carbon soot as Ian suggests, hopefully the TP filter will. If it doesn't then so be it. I expect to be "servicing" the Listeroid every fuel fillup (55 gallon drums) anyway so hopefully it will not suffer excessive wear/damage and if so, as Ian said, it's cheap and easy to fix. Once I have everything in place (I don't even have my Listeroid yet) I will post how the cleaning/filtering does. I will be interested to see the results myself.

Ian

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2007, 08:27:24 AM »
blhfla - I am as sure as is reasonable to be that you cannot spin carbon out of oil at normal centrifuge speeds.

I am not an oil centrifuge expert; not an oil expert; and not a carbon expert. My background is technical (Chemist) and I have worked with centrifuges over the years. Centrifuges are great for separating phases that are mixed together (like milk and cream, oil and water, etc) but the forces required to separate colloidal systems is massive. A centrifuge just speeds up what nature would do over a longer period of time so if it does not happen by gravity (naturally) over, say 1 year, then it doesn't happen in a centrifuge either.

The carbon is colloidal in the oil. As far as I am aware, truly colloidal systems do not naturally separate out. I am sure that SOME of the carbon will not be a true colloidal suspension but I think most of it will be. It may be possible to put an agglomerating agent into the oil to coagulate the particles in some way but I think it is done commercially by vacuum distillation. If you can find a filter that is fine enough to filter the carbon from UMO I am pretty sure that it will blind in almost no time, will use very high temperatures and pressures and be uneconomical.

A centrifuge running at 3450 RPM is slow by centrifuge standards and I have my hat right here beside me ready to eat if you later tell me that a slow centrifuge managed to spin out carbon from UMO.

But, hell, what do I know - give it a try anyway. No-one ever learned and made advances by not trying.


Fuel is just a hydrocarbon that oxidises and produces heat when burned. Lard is no different to diesel if you get the temperatures high enough. Lard is pretty runny at 200 degrees C. Here in the UK we used to fry chips in "dripping" (beef fat) until the politically correct and Marketing guys told us veggie was better for us. When dripping is up to temperature in the fryer it looks as runny as water; very mobile and lacking the viscosity (or solid) associated with fats at ambient temperatures. The secret with veggie is to get it hot enough to handle. Once in the engine, in a fine mist, the engine does not know the difference between a fine mist of diesel or a fine mist of lard. The only appreciable difference is probably that the veggie is reputed to burn very slightly more slowly (micro-seconds) so there could be less diesel knock and a "kinder" impulse on the engine mechanicals.

If the fuel is hot enough the burn is good and deposits are few. If the fuel is not hot enough (even diesel) then the burn will leave deposits. You get rid of the deposits by elbow grease.

Regards,
Ian

Ian

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2007, 08:45:46 AM »
Jens - Sorry, forgot to say what the insulation was....

Here in UK we have a brand called "Rockwool", I think it is fairly universal in the cooler parts of the developed World and looks like fibreglass strand. Just like the word "Hoover" for a vacuum cleaner, the term Rockwool has become synonymous with fibrous insulation even if the brand itself is not from "Rockwool" or the materials originally from rock.

The strand is supplied in various formats with varying densities, loosely woven through to self supporting blocks. The materials are marketed mostly as thermal insulation but the heavier density products are also accredited with acoustic insulation properties also.

Very little real information is provided with these insulation products. They are either classed as "Good" or "Very Good" or "Excellent" for example for acoustic or thermal properties but generally devoid of real numbers and data.

I used a material supplied in sheets 1200 mm x 600 mm x 30 mm and for what it is worth (because I do not think you have the store in Canada) it came from a store called Wickes, a DIY shed selling stuff to the trade and DIY. It can be cut with a sharp knife. I used an old bread knife.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Ian

Doug

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Re: Anyone blend WVO/UMO?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2007, 12:05:55 AM »
Oil/fuel has to be clean and heated or thinned to flow or you will damage things.

Doug - I run a two tank VO system in my VW TDI with coolant and electric heating, but that is straight (cleaned) WVO, not a mix. I was supposing the (cleaned) UMO would thin the WVO sufficiently for the Listeroid's more tolerant IDI and lower pressure injection system. But I haven't ever used UMO as a fuel so I was doing just that.....supposing. So you believeĀ  even a mix (of whatever proportion) of WVO/UMO will still need heating? If so, perhaps a FPHE would suffice?

Don;t read too much into that statement.
Fuel must be clean of the right viscosity and ( to a lesser extent in slow engines with precups and patient owners who ae willing to tune ) Cetane.
Run what ever floats your boat but atthe end of the day these are diesel engines and not waste oil engines. What is you say Jack Milage may very?
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken