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Author Topic: ST head prep  (Read 85434 times)

Doug

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ST head prep
« on: April 26, 2007, 12:51:23 AM »
I don't think anyone ever started a thread on how to srip clean and service and ST head.

Right out of the crate my ST head required a little massage, and I'm still waiting for the replacement end bell from ALTPRO.

So far I've stripped it down and cleaned it. I light wash of the stator with a soft bristle brush with some Xylene and a good soaking with cans of Glyopal 1201A. I noticed a bristle from a brush gummed to the nuckle on the connection end of the stator. This confirms my theory that "Jinlong" ( or what ever the name ) aplied some air dry varnish rather than dipped. Some varnish on one of the lead wires, is tough but flexable so I guess the quality is ok. Once I aplied the first can and let it soak warmed the stator up with 10 amps threw the main winding with a variac. Noticed some wigle in the coil ( buzz ) but after the secons soaking this disapeared as the glyptal was drawn into the stator core and windings by heat and vibration.

Never let the core get to hot to touch of you do this!
Never pour spray anything into an energized winding!

Will provide a picture of the scares on my arm too drive home the point about working on live/near live windings.

Other materials:
Mylar slot liner.
Glass tape for coil seperation.
Glass sleaving  ( and rubberized sleave for connections threw to the dog house )
Bambo slot wedges ( kinda cool, don't see much of that around here lol )
Real cheap solder joints. I'd say they were heat fused rather than silver soldered as I used to do.

Bearings are open type and a little rough to the touch, might be dirt or they could be damaged and or junk....

Maching and castings are unspectacular but better than Rajkot on a good day. Gross weight of the head is a light 178 pounds. Castings are thin but free of defects. A little fugly around the feet but I need to remove more paint in that area.

Pictures to come when I have time.....
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 01:50:20 AM by Doug »
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rpg52

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 01:15:21 AM »
Doug,

Pictures for us novices would be really helpful.  My ST heads seem to be working fine, but inexpensive improvements would be much appreciated.  Thanks,
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 02:14:05 AM »
Well for starters the name Jinlong turns up about as many different electrical companies as one could hope for and so far non make ST heads ( or will admit to it I guess ).


Here's all the pictures I have ready at this time.

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/102508

As you can see there was some damage to the rear end bell. Pat from Altopro Inc, the vender was kind enough to replace it. Its out there on a truck some place right now....

Notice the dog house is caught eyed, this is nothing just needs to be adjusted....

Here we are drying in the cool of Tuesday evening. The xylene and 2 coats of 1201A are going to take some time now to cool and fully cure. This morning it was still slightly tacky to the touch and notice the gloss, 1201 is a semi gloss paint but because it has been thinned and layed on heavy in about 5 coats its got a shine to it now. It will get at least 1 more full can of electrical finnish before I'm done to ensure all the winding is glued together as tightly as possible. Any wires that wiggle in the slots or knuckel will sooner rather than later wear threw the enamal coating and begine to short into the other coils. Notice I also went to the trouble to paint the inside of the case frame and fully coat all the laminations. The Paint will wick into the laminations if there are places it can. Loose laminations will rattle and hum, some machines will happily rattle for some time, others will not. Painting the inside of the frame is also good practice, it prevents rust and a smooth clean surface will collects less dust and fuzz making future services and cleaning easier. Also If a crack or probelem develops ona clean painted surface you stand a better chance of noticing.

Some guy wrote somethng In Chinese on the bottom, I wonder what it says?

Some guy didn't paint the bottom....
( but the clean rust free casting tells me the machine was never exposed to water or moister from the day it left the factory )
 
Doug

One more thing I want to add about loose wires and laminations....
If you own an arc welder try this trick, cut a small handfull of wire coat hangers bound with string at the center only as tight as possible. Wrap as many loops of cable around the center of the bundle as you can or better yet find some smaller wire. Strike an arch with this rig in series with your short stub at lowest setting and work your way up to some higher ones and watch the effect this hs on the bundle of coat hangers.

For those without a welder let me explane what happens
They dance and spread and try and push each other apart at the ends of the bundle.

The reason magnetic forces are trying to push the like poles at the tips of each piece of wire aprt from on another. These same forces are trying to push you ST head apart and this is why its so important to bind, clamp and glue together with varnish all the pieces could or would push themselves apart. All the torque and force exerted on the shaft are also pressing diirectly on every other part or indurectly threw the magnetic field of the machine.

This is also why large power transformers are bolted together with heavy I beams holding the structure up and laminations of the core together. Forces equivilent to the power rating of the machine are trying to push it apart

« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 03:05:13 AM by Doug »
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Tom

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 04:14:59 AM »
Hey Doug,

I just did the bearings in my ST5 for the record they are a 6309 on the big end and 6307 on the small. The factory bearings I received were noisy from first run and only lasted about 25 hours before they started screeching.

The rear bearing was pretty tight in the housing and I found that an automotive damper wheel puller and 3 long 10-24 screws work great for pushing it out.

I should have done the glyptol treatment, however I'm powering a construction site and needed to get back into operation. Now that I'm comfortable with disassembling this machine I will add this to my "to do" list for this fall.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Geno

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 11:50:48 AM »
Thanks Doug, that’s very good information.
Question: My slip rings are pretty round but not quite straight on the shaft so I get a side-to-side wobble. It’s not enough to cause the brushes to lose contact so I thought I would be OK. One set of brushes and its ring is wearing faster than I thought it would. I stepped up my cleaning of the area and I’ll see what happens. Any Suggestions? Also, if I’m not mistaken once the ring is worn out I’m pretty much screwed. They don’t look replaceable.

Thanks, Geno

Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 05:31:01 PM »
I haven't actulay bent down and looked at my bearing size but I'll assume thats right ( mine might be different perhaps smaller, not realy an issue for me right now).

Bearings should be replaced with 2 Z or 2 RS to protect them from dirt. I like the 2 Z sheild because if you pack some quality # moly grease into the housing about 50% full the bearing will over time pump a small amount threw the gap in the sheild as it requires more.

If you pull a bearing off a shaft consider it scrap.

I also had a tighter than comfort fit on the rear end bell and made a simple puller to drag the end bell off the bearing. I guess I should take a picture, basicaly the same as I used to remove my fly wheel but much smaller.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4199807

I used some longer metric bolts and nuts to reach threw the housing. I simply took an impression of the bolt holes and end bell with a pencil and paper and eyeballed it. I used a 5/16 caurse thread bolt and it pulled off with minum effort. You don't want to drag and beat on this, you may damage the endbell or worse if you have a metal cooling fan on the other end tare up some insulation on the winding.

Preheat bearing in your oven at 200 -250 F so they will slide on the shaft. You can also stick your rotor in the freezer to shrink it some and make sure. Never hit the out race of a bearing, never warm one to slip it on the shaft with a flame. If you must hit the inner race with a small chisel ground flat to drive it home if it binds on the shaft durring assembly but be gentle....

Slip rings can be replaced but its not a DIYer job. You'll end up taking it to a motor shop and they will have some brass round cut and shaped into rings and fabricate a new insulator out of Bakelite ( probably machine, but they may cast it them selves ) and it will be epoxied on the shaft.
I made slip rings, its not hard but you need the right tools and material ( I don't have the right tools anymore )
I supose you could improvise something and have it machined on the shaft....

 
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rpg52

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 05:51:22 PM »

Thanks Doug, useful information, and I appreciate the explaination regarding the magnetic forces on wires.

Question:  will you also be painting the rotor with the Glyptal too? 

Second question:  When I apply load to my ST 5 head it buzzes - is this what the Glyptal is supposed to cure?

The ST 5 is driven by my Listeroid, the ST 12 may also buzz, but the Detroit Diesel is so loud, I couldn't possibly hear it.  Seems like both of them would benefit from the Glyptal treatment.  Thanks again.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 06:29:09 PM »
Yes I will shoot the rotor with 1201A but I am debating on whether I will take it to shop with a ballancer....

My rotor is a little crude ( he he ) and could possibly need some weight added and adjustments to the pole shoes and laminations ( huge job of screwing around if its even possible at this point ), after I'll paint it.

If you paint a rotor, best to hang it and tape over the slip rings. The idea is to get an even coat and no sags. There is a possbility that too much paint on one side will rub on the stator so I sugest you trya and keep the pinat on the fieldf coils and jut a thin coat on the steel. Or you may want to paint the hell out of everything and get some solvent Graphity remover and wipe off any runs or excess from pole shoes.....

Once 1201 has fully dried not much will removed short of real paint remover. After several hours common paint thinner will no longer wipe off 1201.

Hard to say much about the buzzing unless I could see touch and work on the machine. Odds are if you can jam a thumbnail between wires in a coil group and they seperate easily there is not enough varnish. If you can jam a razor blade between lamination steel it may move and give you that buzzing sound.

The important thing to remember is nothing is suposed to move. The idea planted in some peoples heads reading about STs on other sites is that you could easily strip out the copper wire and rewind it yourself. This is a dumb statement. A properly bound, wedged and varnished winding is a solid block and the idea anything loose is ok is wrong. "Fiber glass and resin" is how tight things need to be for long service.

Infact the PD George company makes an epoxy resin that is basicaly a highly refined version of marine fiberglass boat epoxy to seal and hold windings,

I assume if you hear steel moving in the stator and soak it good with 1201 it may glue everything together well enough to hush things up. But a lot depends on how well things were made in the first place. A certain amount of movement might be something you have to live with.

Depending on how the connections in the stator are made and if you have an unballanced load you may also notice more or less noise.

In order to remove a properly bound and varnished winding I need a burn out oven to incinerate all the insulation or a tiger torch to heat it up and melt everything so I can pullout the coils. In order to pull out the coils I need to cut the knuckle off the winding on one end and drage bits of copper coil out the connection end. Its also import to remember to disect the connectionside of thewindind and determine the connects first. The I need to pull out complete coil groups and count the turns, span and record. The I need to make a diagram of the winding, verify the wire size by micrometer befopre I proceed witht he dirty job of stripping all that copper out.
A smartguy would also follow up by checking the magnetic densities of the iron, look for slot fill and see if the wiore size can be increased and if any changes can be made that if OKed by the customer would improve the performance of the machine.
Selection of proper replament materials. Generaly F wire, DMD slot liners F or H bake dry varnish, silver solder for connection and glass sleave to cover them 130c lead wire. A lot goes into these things from new and remanufacture, the best we can hope to do is service and clean these machines in the field.

A properly made winding cared for could last decades. But a winding is only as good as the material used and care in fabrication. My head has Bambo roof wedges in the slots, not as good as white maple that was commonly used in the old days and both are inferor materials to fiber glass.
Whats the temperature rating for Bambo?
It doesn't matter that is my insulations systems weakest link and where heat will age and loosen things first.

Doug
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 06:52:25 PM by Doug »
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Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2007, 01:25:49 AM »
More pictures in the putfile:

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/102508

Completely stripped the stator of paint and found it was a waste of my time because I found nothing.....

Paint would have looked better and stayed on if they cleaned the castings first and painted the bottom lol.

Rotor had some interesting little things to look for such as solder and nicks in some of the coils.

Still waiting for Pat to send me the replacment end bell.......

Some things I have done may look out of step but think about it if you are going to screw around with power tools that generate dust and or free sand and casting flash you might want to seal the winding first with Glyptal in case something get in and perhaps even again after your done. The realy smart guy would tape and paper over all the holes and entrances. Not that I intended to scrape off all the paint, it just sort of started to fall off when I picked at it and next thing you know I'm running a die grinder in the corners of the foot webbing....

Total strip time about an hour with a putty knife and die grinder. Right now its primed and sanded.

Oh yes my bearings are much smaller than Tom's. I have a 6305 and a 6208. Good - bad I realy can't comment, I have to see how it runs. Bigger is better for a lot of reasons and it would been nice to see some better quality and bigger bearings.

Doug
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 02:23:06 AM by Doug »
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Tom

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2007, 05:40:46 PM »
I'm glad to hear my st5 came with something good. The first time I put a load on it it fried the rectifier and the bearings were noisy out of the box. On another interesting note the iron in the armature (if that is the right word) has a lot of gaps in it. What it looks like is that many of the layers of steel have missing chunks. I wonder if I got a conglomeration of defective parts? Any way it is working well since the bearing and rectifier replacement.

Thanks for the progress report and photo's of your quality rebuild Doug!
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

okiezeke

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2007, 03:27:10 AM »
Doug,
I have 2 ST15s that I would like to replace bearings and seal the windings.  I worry about the weight of the rotor making it hard to remove without breaking something.  Is there a right way to get a heavy one apart?  Am thinking of getting some UHMW polyethylene film to put between the rotor and stator when removing and replacing the rotor.   Can get it in .010 or .020 thickness.  How much clearance am I likely to have between rotor and stator?  Thanks,
Zeke
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 04:12:35 AM by okiezeke »
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
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Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 01:28:18 AM »
Tom I don't know whats going on with the rotors....
Mines like that too.
Could be the rotor is made from scraps left over from previous stampings. That and poor assembly I guess I just don't know and I feel it would be a waste of time trying to tear anything apart to find out.

All these air gaps add up to more losses but whats 1 or 2 %?

Zeke I don't know what too tell you. I guess you could try a sheet of plastic or brass shim stock. Best thing would be to get a friend to help support the other end of the rotor as you slide it out. I can't say I recall ever badly screwing things up with a little help lifting a heavy load.

Doug

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okiezeke

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 02:59:47 AM »

Doug,
Thanks.  I think I'll try supporting the shaft end with the engine lift, and have momma roll the lift as I ease the rotor out supporting from the brush end.  The floor is level, so should stay centered as we remove it.  Funny how things seem so complex when I've never done them before.  With your info, should be a piece of cake.
Zeke
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

Andre Blanchard

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 02:32:41 PM »
If you can stand the gen up on end you can lift the rotor out, with a host if one is handy.  With or without the host it will be easier to avoid damaging things.
______________
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Doug

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Re: ST head prep
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2007, 01:59:34 AM »
I guess I sound like a hack, but the truth is I used a fork lift to ram some out if it came to a point where I couldn't get the Rotor/Armature to slide threw because the end bell was stuck or a bearing wouldn't give ect.

The point being as long as you move carefuly and slowly you can shift and wigle these things apart. A little help and second set of hands, lifting device and even a blunt object with wheels are long as you move slow and have a plan. If you can sling the shaftto hold it up and shuv the rotor out thats another option.

Just don't let things come crashing to the ground and don't drage the rotor of the nuckle of the stator winding.

Doug 
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