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Author Topic: improving heat recovery of Lister type.  (Read 9106 times)

n2toh

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improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« on: January 28, 2006, 12:47:48 AM »
following cujets mention of the Honda combined heat and power unit.

Can anyone think of ways to recover more waste heat from their Listeroid?
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

kyradawg

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2006, 12:50:55 AM »
?
Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:32:13 PM by kyradawg »

n2toh

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2006, 03:12:26 AM »
yea that could work, a two stage absorber using coolent and exaust heat.

What about reclaiming the heat lost via the head and cylinder castings?
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

justsomeguy

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2006, 04:30:23 AM »
Keeping the heat from leaking out would probably add to the heat recovery quite a bit.

Spray foam insulation on the head and water jacket could really cut down on heat loss, but would be quite the fire hazzard.  It pretty much turns to napalm when it burns, and I'm sure the wind from the flywheels would fan the flames nicely.  If it could be fireproofed, it would be wonderfull.

Wraping the head and water jacket with a thin layer of fiberglass insulation would even help quite a bit.  But I don't like dealing with the itchy stuff.  It's an option though.  Any form of insulation on the upper parts of the engine would help.  Wrapping crank case will raise the oil temp, but it will keep heat from bleeding from the water jacket.  The increase in oil temp may or may not be a good thing for the life of the engine.

Taking cool water, and passing it in to an exhaust heat exchanger before piping it to the water jacket would probably get the most heat out of the exhaust.  Figure that 30% of the fuel combustion heats the water jacket, 30% of the fuel combustion is turned to mechanical energy,and 30% goes out the exhaust.  So claiming as much exhaust heat as possible is important if maximizing heat output is a goal. 


kyradawg

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2006, 06:16:22 AM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:31:41 PM by kyradawg »

n2toh

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2006, 08:23:29 AM »
The fiberglass reminds me of something I read about in Home Power, Wool batting insulation it's way less itchy to handle than fiberglass and naturaly fire resistant.

only downside I can think of is it must smell wonderfull if allowed to get wet.

As for the oil I'm no expert but I have heard around 100°F is typical, I think things would be better if the oil was closer the the coolent temp.

As for feeding exhaust heated water into the water jacket, you could do a reverse coolent flow like the LT1 Corvette motor. For the gasser anyway they claim the more even cylinder+head temp allows you to  run 87 octane with a rather high CR, 10:1 I think it was.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

Tom

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2006, 07:04:11 PM »
Some where I saw, maybe Georges CD, a picture of a Lister exhaust going through the exhaust vent of a gas fired 30 gal water heater. That seems like a good in-expensive way to go. Remember an exhaust heat exchanger will need the soot removed from time to time and will condense a lot of water.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

justsomeguy

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2006, 11:54:23 PM »
In a gasoline engine, you've got to keep knock down, so you do everything you can to keep the fuel charge from self igniting, or detonating.  Insulating things with ceramics keeps heat from raisin the charge air temperature.  On a diesel, it's exaclty oposite.  Self ignition *IS* the goal on a diesel.  But ceramics can be used to raise combusition temperature, and keep the heat where it needs to be, so it can do real work.

Reverse cooling, forward cooling, it makes no difference on a Lister, because you don't need to keep the heads cool to keep detonation down like on a gasoline engine.  Quite the oposite:  You want the heads to be warm to promote good combustion.  Thats why diesels don't like to start when they're cold!

Ceramic coating could probably increase the mechanical efficaincy of a Lister, because lost heat equals lost power.  At the very least, it would raise exhaust temp.  And it might even help cold starting.

Ceramic coating:  I'll add it to my list of "Lister things to try."

As for rockwool or fiberglass.... thinking abot it a little more...... they'd both become very flamable once they wicked themselves full of oil.   :o


binnie

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2006, 12:14:11 AM »
Hi Tom,
The set up you are referring to is on Geo.B.'s CD and is an installation not far from me, near Ottawa, Cda, in the far north. It is impressive, and I mean the whole set up is impressive, not just the heat exchanger. Unfortunallly, Ernst is not computer litteret yet, and is on his own. He is not connected to the grid either....and is using an impressive amount of WVO  with his set up. He has not paid a Hydro Bill for the last 8 months. and the place was lit up for Christmass like anyother.
He is also using the coolant water for heat transfer along with the exhaust for a heat exchanger. There is no waste & the fuel is free!
Unfortunately we are not able to be in contact with all the people who are using the Listeroid via the "Forum"...The computer  is not their strong point...the Lister is. Ernst's set up is mind blowing !
He is the next door neigbour to John Ferguson, who also is on a 12/2 lister and a 20/2 for back up..and both are on WVO...They are both very cogen in their set ups. They miss nothing. I was impressed.
Binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

kyradawg

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2006, 01:30:35 AM »

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:28:10 PM by kyradawg »

n2toh

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2006, 02:33:08 AM »
one would hope. I still haven't found the graphs for them yet.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

Tom

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2006, 04:02:11 AM »
Hello Binnie,

Well if you visit Ernst maybe you could take some more pictures??? Thanks for the further info!

Tom

Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

binnie

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2006, 04:10:52 AM »
Hi Tom,
I have the picts...but a bitch of a time to post on Copermine...if you send me your addy I will forward as attchments. Welcome aboard!
Binnie.
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

kyradawg

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2006, 04:40:59 AM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:26:23 PM by kyradawg »

Tom

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Re: improving heat recovery of Lister type.
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2006, 05:27:09 AM »
Here it is Binnie,

treed at hlo.com I'll post the pics for all on some web server space I have.

Tom
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.