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Author Topic: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics  (Read 104388 times)

phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2007, 04:19:43 PM »

Hi Cap!

Yes, it does not take much trauma to put a person into an emotional irrational state. Pity!

The point you make about logic raises the idea of what seems to me to be a fundamental problem for humankind. Here we are, cunning clever little chimps, victims of our necessary emotions, superstitions, and myths. Now that we have made the technology necessary for destruction on a vast scale available to all, and, in terms of environmental damage, are accelerating processes that even increase the rate of destruction, the fundamental human conflict seems both proximately dangerous and unresolved. (Einstein wrote about this a bit, I think.) I would characterize the problem as a conflict between logic and evil. ("logic", as used here is has a bit broader meaning than usual.) William Sloane Coffin wrote all 'round this notion. Of course, it is a fundamental in his logos.

This juxtaposition is nothing new. At( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos ) the Greek, Jewish, and Christian tradition of logos is sketched out, with the implication that opposite "the Christ" or "God" or "creative principle" (aka logos) lies a "dark side". This contrast is discussed in Genesis where the Hebrew word "timshel" is used - meaning "thou mayest" (prevail over evil).( http://timshel.org/timshel.php ) The best, perhaps the only, arena for resolving conflicts between these two aspects of humanity is, imho, politics. This usage should be understood in a very broad sense.

Thus it seems to me that, while we obviously ought not to believe, for example, Fidel, we ought to listen to these voices and reason why they say what they do. (in Fidel's case, over 80, it seems to me that he has identified a genuine trend and seeks to use it as a lever - it's what Fidel does, and he's good at it). By the way, some contextual background for "El Supremo" that informs my ideas here is Eduardo Galeano's "Open Veins of Latin America", Arundhati Roy's "An Ordinary Person's Guide to Empire" and Gott's "Cuba, a History". In Bush's case, for another example, if one assumes that everything he says is a lie, and then compares his actions with his words, very soon one can see a neat package that points descriptively toward true-goal and grand strategy. (This technique is not limited to our dear leader - it works pretty well with any disingenuous character.)
 
I know what you mean when you use the term "leaders", but I think it's generally a misleading term, a deception, and that when we use it we tend to deceive ourselves. Most so-called leaders actually seem to try to prevent or minimize change, shaping it only when they must. Real leadership seems to come from the general population. This often places "leaders" in opposition to "their" people'(s), as we see everyday. A basic tool "leaders" use is naming a thing. Through naming conceptualization is framed and limited, and the array of options is limited. (And the first thing they name is themselves!) This notion then leads to a comparision of the terms "authority" and "power". It seems to me that "leaders" have power, guns, lawyers, money - but they generally have only whatever authority is temporarily loaned to them by people. This smaller relationship seems to parallel the relationship between logos and evil.

Moving to a focus here on the matter of bio-fuel politics it occurs me that fuel, in the contemporary world, conveys political and economic power, it is at least an amplifier of power. It does not convey authority - this remains in the individual hands of the general population. Because of peak oil supply constraints the natural evolution of the relationship between fuel and power is becoming asymmetrical - presenting "leaders" with what they see as political opportunity. This, in turn, tends to increase the already strained divergent interests between them and "their people". This is to say that the best interests of a "leader" is to control fuel, while the best interests of the people is to control it themselves. Two paths then open to the individual - obey and accept what is offered, or not. By implication a significant self-sufficiency in fuel would then be seen as a threat or danger to power. Numerous examples abound in petroleum, Iraq, Saudi, and so forth. And, to drive the nail in, it looks to me like there are emerging examples of this in the developing bio-fuel systems. Castro is "naming" the process - a basic first step. More generally, dear leader has named those who do not obey - "terrorists".

From this I think I can see that extracting bio-fuels from foreign peoples would tend to focus power in an Nth "leader", while developing a well engineered and ethical domestic system would tend to undermine an Nth "leader". It looks to me as though the interests of the ordinary people are generally and increasingly at odds with the interests of "leaders". That seems to be a setting fertile for sudden change. I wish I was young - an exciting revolutionary time just around the corner. Actually though I worry about the stability of things and my pension...

Smooth Sailing,

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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2007, 11:32:35 PM »
OK, right, yeah,
Try to be prepared for WTSHTF?
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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2007, 02:36:32 AM »
Phaedrus says some interesting things.....

The history of western civilization has often been that when poor people have something that powerful people want, the poor people either give it up or fight, and then give it up. There are exceptions though - the poor do not always lose the fight.

The dear leader comment also made me chuckle and next time I see Bush on TV I will be closely looking at him from that commic POV. But there is nothing funny about the man and his agenda, and don't kid yourself everyone has an agenda.

V.I.L sleeps in his glass box and no one has the nerve to finaly put the man to rest. I believe its a sign and symbol that unkle Joe never concieved when he was stuffed and mounted. " This is all far from over " is what I think he says from his glass box.
Maybe Trotsky will get his moment in the sun next....
Che will always be a hero to some....

Politics....

Remember that capitalism and socialsm are not politics they are methods for organizing economic output and we may be forced to rethink them.

 
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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2007, 03:20:00 AM »
Thought for the day'''
The republicians with their evangelical bastardization of american conservatism, may in fact be no worse than the democratic goal of having the most inefficient socialist state on the planet.//////////is there a third choice?  Vladimir putin in 08!????  Steven colbert isnt kidding, you know.
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phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #109 on: May 26, 2007, 03:18:06 AM »
A bit off topic, not tied to bio-fuels but looking at the politics alone, my reasoning, analysis, of the Republicans and particularly the "junta" (what else to call it?), not so much what they say but their actions and implied policies (agendas), and their so-called opposition too (is there a dime's worth of difference?), leads me to believe that they all fail to appreciate what seems to me to be a fundamental of the metaphysics of conflict. This fundamental is stated as a principle: "The indirect consequences of a direct action always exceed the direct consequences." The product of this dynamic is that, over time, their policies will fail to produce the results that they desire. They will certainly produce results - but not the desired results. As this process goes forward it tends to deconstruct the popular mythology which is essential to their possession of authority - again "loaned" by the general population. We have seen what happens when authority is withdrawn. It's primarily a matter of perceptions being driven by actions. One astonishing implication, speaking of Trotsky, Doug, is that in effect dear leader is a Trotskyite! He has set out to create a revolution, he says, (I doubt his sincerity in this), and it looks as though he will have got what he said he wanted (but won't like the shape of it). By the way, the stated principle is one I derived - but it also has a parallel in engineering. In the metaphysics it is an hypothesis, unproved, but it seems to work. In operation this principle means a set of positive feedback loops generates an acceleration of violence until the primary actors exit the scene and are replaced by competent people who understand politics. Opinion, yes, but considered over a long time, and tested some too. This is dangerous because the outcomes of violence cannot be predicted. "Shit happens."

I like the distinction Doug made about the nature of capitalism and socialism not being political systems. It reminds me of an FDR quote. I can only paraphrase it from memory - but it seems that Franklin was being praised for his (socialist) WPA CCC (somewhat) pro-union, etc policies. He replied something like, "I did not make America safe for the working class, I made it safe for big business." Naturally enough, in Marxist theory, for it would seem that his fundamental agenda was to represent his class and prevent "revolution" by accommodating controlled and moderate change - "throwing a bone to labor". This story illustrates the effectiveness of the indirect approach in conflict. It is, I think, by no means certain which way a "revolution" would have gone in the US of that period, imho, so Franklin may simply have been being humane and practical, not wanting either a communist or fascist future. (Marxist theory having some defects). (I put revolution in quotes 'cause I think revolution occurs in a moment, a matter of sudden change in perceptions, the conflicts that follow, often violent, are not the actual revolution, they are attempts by competing parties to gather and consolidate power and get "loaned" authority.)

Zeke, I hope there is a third way - 'cause it looks like we're headed into a turbulent period of rapid changes. If so, speaking of VIL, "power may (then) be lying in the street". I'd give a nickel for another FDR right now... I bet old V.I. is having a good laugh...maybe he's having a drink with Franklin too, who knows?
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haganes

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #110 on: May 26, 2007, 08:20:51 AM »
phaedrus

fdr like churchill was the right man at the right time - so was generals patton and macarthur.  my feeling is that none of these people are right for the issues today.  how about genghis khan?

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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #111 on: May 26, 2007, 08:57:49 AM »
genghis kahn,
we have him ,unfortunately he's on the other side and named bin laden.  Very smart ,totally committed, totally without principle, and dedicated to the death of every american on the planet.  Even in death he will live on in thousands of zealots ready to take his place.  What we have here is genocide.  Ours or theirs.  Why are we too stupid to see it?  Radical islam canot be controlled with American Values.  Teddy Roosevelt, where are you?
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phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #112 on: May 26, 2007, 06:20:06 PM »
Gentlemen, what I had in mind regarding "an FDR" was a person who could de-fuze revolution, the revolution that, I think, is being developed by the present people, both through their failure to deal effectively with peak-oil and sudden climate change, and also through a very inept policy in the gulf region.

Zeke, I agree that Radical Islam can't be contained (or defeated) with American values. I think that's because we value direct action. Direct action only strengthens the forces against which it is used. It seems to me that, if we are to prevail over RI we shall have to change ourselves a bit, and come to value and understand, as RI does, indirect action.

I saw a good discussion of this approach in a film - "The Battle of Algiers". Richard Clark and Michael Sheehan, experts, are close to stating the principle and seem to understand the strategies necessary. I don't think they see things in terms of metaphysics, but they have a practical understanding.

The Algerian RI was defeated - all killed or jailed and isolated. That was not enough - it came back 2 years later, stronger than ever. The methods the French used in the first round were very bad, and hurt the French while strengthening the RI in Algeria. When the second generation came into action the French were seen to have been defeated, the revolution was long over. The French methods were direct action...

I think that present-day RI can be defeated, not overnight, but defeated by conditions, by themselves. If, for example, the US took the indirect action against them of developing a proper, sustainable, and ethical domestic energy policy that established the country as approximately oil-neutral self-sufficient and exited the gulf, RI would burn itself out - I think. I think that  genocide as a strategy would, if the US did it, ruin us. I don't know if it would ruin them to do it, but I bet it would. At any rate it's not feasible to control a thing like that, and it might not work anyway, people would hide their religion and political ideas, who would you kill and where would you stop?. Again, the indirect effects would outweigh the direct effects.

This, the failure of direct actions, was the Brit experience in Iraq (in mandate Iraq, 1920's + they lost 40,000 soldiers) and also in Afghan late in the 19th century. (The Brits used airborne gas attacks on the Iraqis, by the way, and lost about 92,000 men in the Mesopotamian Campaign - the effort during the World War) In both cases RI was the result, not the cause, of the fighting and foreign presence - direct actions. The Ottoman Empire ruled the whole area for about 300 years, and avoided, mostly, serious problems with RI. It can be, and has been, done.  One of the best ways to de-fuse conflict is to create the perception of distance. As Mao said, "man cannot fight alone." Of course leaving all that crude alone is a tough thing to do and would require the US to change its ways of knowing. To paraphrase Sun Tsu, "Winning a conflict first requires that one's own nation is put into proper order."

Regards, P
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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2007, 05:01:12 AM »
phaedrus
" I'd give a nickel for another FDR right now... "
I'll be honest with you and say I don't know much about American history or politics or FDR aproach to the 30's.

I do know Bennit died a lonely old man in England ( good thing too I'd make a point of going to Ottawa to piss on his grave along with Diefenbaker ).....
The cradle of Canadian  Socialism has twice seen mounties open fire on crowds. God forbid the strikers get what they wanted, or the trains make it to Sudbury....
Revolution can be stopped by a jack boot.

Maybe its part of the Canadian experience, but I recall Soviet life on the bookshelf next to "Popular mechanics" and "Time" in high school along with a lot of books like Capital and volumes of Official "Soviet ecconomic data". This seemed normal.... I also remember the stories of Mounty spies in the mine mill union ( growing up in mining town of Cold war stratigic importance ). And Tomy Douglas, the only Politician in my lifetime that still stands out as a man of his word.

Oh ya Tomy's " Mouse land " speach, still speaks to me.....
I'm not aware of any American politician or political movements that went as far or earned such respect.

I can't draw any parralels between Bush and any historical figuers of any importance like Trotsky.

I don't know anything about Sun Tsu, but Mao said a lot of things and he had some great speak writers words and deeds are two different things. Possibly my favourite still belongs to Uncle Joe " One cannot build socialism wearing white cotton gloves ", better blood stained in his mind me thinks.

What does the future hold?
I dunno I'm an electrician not a magician........

Doug

OK I had to come back one last time and post a link to the Mouse Land speach

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-851-4958/politics_economy/tommy_douglas/clip4

Oh ya maybe one more thing Phaedrus, do you like Shostakovich?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 05:49:07 AM by Doug »
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haganes

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2007, 07:48:22 AM »
phaedrus et al..........

RI (radical islam) or RC (radical christianity) or RJ (radical judaism) is all the same to me so could we use RR (radical religion).

i agree that western military action in the middle east will never be a solution, and will make the situation a lot worse.

but even without our involvement, these theories being tossed around do not begin to explain the taliban or khomeini.

the problem with americans is that they think the world thinks like they do - and that is the fundamental problem. 

as spiderman's father said 'with power comes responsibility', and i am afraid we are irresponsible.

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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2007, 01:25:05 AM »
Lots of people in other countries lie to beat up on America.
Your goverment does a lot of heavy handed and sometimes dumb things.
But there's no debate Americans open up their wallets and try and help when there are disaters around the world.

I'm not saying one ballances the other but you can't judge a people by their leaders.
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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2007, 09:49:47 AM »
Doug,
Almost all Americans would agree with you that our government leaders are a pathetic bunch of self serving idiots.  They make national policy to enrich themselves and their cronies.  Our really hopeless problem is that one party is as corrupt as the other.  No honest man exists in American politics.  We've had Jimmy Carter, who was a good person trying to do the right thing.  The DC power brokers rebelled and rendered him impotent.  Jesse Ventura is as close as we've come to an honest politician lately, and he's given up in disgust.  The reason most elections here are decided with a 30% voter turnout is that we realize our choice is which crook we want to elect.  We will not last long as the world superpower the way we're going.  In 20 years we will be like France.  Third rate, dreaming of past glory, while Others shape world politics.  Our decline is well underway, clearly visible in world economic statistics.  We lost the war in Korea, Viet Nam, the Balkins, and now Iraq.  Like Rome in 400ad, we wonder what to do, and find no answers.  Radical change would be a blessing, but we have no leaders.........yet.
Zeke

ps I'm still happy to live in the US, mess though it is.
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phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2007, 05:08:40 PM »

Shostakovich? Not particularly, I like aspects of the art of the Soviet period, music included, but I would fail an exam on it - I have no passion for that material, just a liking.

I don't think Uncle Joe was being honest when he made the quoted remark about building socialism. I think he was making an excuse for his brutality and murders, mass and otherwise. I'm no expert on the Soviet period, but my inclination is to think that Joe destroyed socialism in the S.U. - one of the indirect effects of his frequent resorts to violence, to direct force.

"Soviet Life" sure was not on the shelf when I was a kid, but I did read it, from a collection. I thought, as I recall, that it was not credible. I might have been 19 or so. I spent a full day examining a stack of 'em. It's been years since I have thought about that...   In the US some of the present day "security" companies, Pinkerton and so forth, got their start murdering strikers. Turned machine guns on women and kids. And provocative set-ups were common, the most famous being the Haymarket business.

Doug, I have never before heard of this "Bennit". I did a look-see on wiki, but don't seem to connect with anything Canadian. Can you elaborate?

Mao did say a lot of things. Lies, truths, in-betweens. In this case I suspect the quote actually originated with Confucius and Mao just repeated it - just a suspicion. Anyway "man does not fight alone" seems objectively true and also it seems to have a double meaning - one is that it takes at least two people, or two minds, to have a fight. Another meaning is that effective fighting is an activity that requires cooperation, "gung ho" means something like "work together", I'm told.

Another Mao quote comes to mind: "Everyone has two hands and two feet. Everything of value comes from these. How is it then that the people who use these the least have the most things of value?" At first blush the question seems to imply that injustice accounts for the disparity in material wealth - and maybe that's what Mao wanted to make his audience think, I don't know. But upon reflection it seems to me to also imply that the mind that directs the hands and feet accounts for the disparity of wealth. If that's what Mao wished his masses to think, that the mind was the true engine, then it looks to me like an opening to explain the relationship between capital and labor, and to develop the idea that this coupled pair, in order to find stability, need to be tied together through the heart. (I heard Fritz Lang (director of numerous films- "M", Metropolis, etc.) say just that recently in a documentary.)

I agree that there is a large (and serious) disconnect between the American people and their (so-called) leaders. I think that's been made more extreme in recent years, and that the realization of this has become pretty well universal. That cynicism has always been around, but it's a view that seems to be held by just about everybody now - and that change is, of itself, a revolution. Nothing can be done, I think, to re-establish belief, the common faith in leaders and government. This, at least potentially, sets the stage for conflict between those two groups.

I have no idea what the "shape" of that conflict will be. It's still developing, imho. I hope it's not violent, but I think it will be.
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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2007, 06:27:44 PM »
Shostakovich wrote some fantastic and moving music in my opinion like the 7th, later works are a mixture of canned stuff that the party wanted to hear and experimental works. All has deaper meanings some combinations of notes are codes I'm told to signify Lenin, Stalin and very subversive.

He spent many nights I read sitting nest to the elevator waiting for the KGB to take him to Siberia ( so they wouldn't wake his family ). He went from the hights influance in Soviet society to being an unperson at one point. There's also the misery of Satlin grad he lived threw....

How can you live threw that and not go nuts, plus create such beautiful music with depth and edge ( one of my favourites is the satirical "Buracrat polka" from his 1931 ballet "The Bolt" ). There were other composers, non realy interested me so I'd fail a test on them too, but I am facinated by the man as I am his music and thats probably why.

Bennit was Canada's PM durring the early part of the depression, a concervative so hated for things like relief camps where unemployed men we basicaly captive workers paid penuts and moved to places where they could stir trouble. He also ordered the Mounties to stop the on to Ottawa trek before they could reach Sudbury. The mounties open fire and killed, clubbed and arrested homeless jobless men. Historians debate here that if the trains of men made it here there was enough anger and unemployed people ready to join that they could not be stopped and would have forced some sort of show down in the capital with the Goverment.

Bennit is also famous for doign nothing for farmer hit by the dust bowl and cars towed by horses when the owners ran out of manoy were called "Bennit buggies".

He moved to England and died there after he lost the next election the man was truely hated. 

In hind sight I guess its odd all the soviet stuff around me growing up for example the Soviet space display I saw at Ontario place in the late 70's left as deap an impact as if not deaper than a later trip to Florida. I guess Its because the Russians got to me first lol.
 

I'm not a well educated man, or that well read ( Lenin would aprove since I am smart enough to read the propaganda but not educated to question too much lol ) and you obvioulsy are well read.
quote
"But upon reflection it seems to me to also imply that the mind that directs the hands and feet accounts for the disparity of wealth. If that's what Mao wished his masses to think, that the mind was the true engine, then it looks to me like an opening to explain the relationship between capital and labor, and to develop the idea that this coupled pair, in order to find stability, need to be tied together through the heart."

You've given me some things to think about and I probably need to read some more before I can realy comment I can comment to much on some of the stuff you've touched on. But I will share one more thought and opinion on something I did read enough I think to make an informed comment on. Marx seems to have been much better at discribing Capitalism than formualting a functioning alternative. That at least is the impact Das Capital  had on me. And the great Soviet experiment of corrupted Marxism teaches me two things. One you can build a command ecconomy, and two you can if you keep bellies full in the face of chaos most people will tollerate living under a jack boot ,at least up to a point.

Never thought I would have a conversation like this in the Lister forum lol.

Doug
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phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2007, 08:45:22 PM »
Last for a few days - going away on essential business. Anyway going to give it a rest.

Shostakovich's 7th - that's the Leningrad siege thing, right? Astonishing music. Did not know about the codes.

I am not educated either, but have followed my nose in studying everything that catches my interest. They threw me out of school near the end of the 11th grade. I did go to college, off and on, but never graduated and really don't remember much about that experience. It seemed to be a trap - "do this, obey, and you may get tenure, a "good job" etc. Schools seem to me to be primarily structures dedicated to creating obedience and imparting knowledge so focused that it has the effect of ignorance or control. In those days the 'nam business was a challenge - but they believed me when I told 'em that the first person I'd shoot would be the lieutenant, that if they wanted somebody dead they'd have to do it themselves. (They seemed to miss the contradiction in that.) Though we were protestants there were considerable Quaker and Jewish influences in my youth - they stuck.

I've worked in the trades all my life. Steelworkers, Teamsters, etc. Now I'm a member of local 102 of the UBC millwrights. I've got about 8 1/2 years to go to collect my pension - and wonder if it'll be worth anything by then.

Thanks for the bit on Bennit. That was also the name used for the cowardly exec in Compass Rose, from the book and movie "The Cruel Sea". I wonder if there's a connection. We had Herbert Hover - similarly disliked, but sounds like your guy was worse!

My notions about revolution began with reading Eric Hoffer - he made the point that, rather than revolution producing change, it should be seen that change creates revolution. Taking that another step, which Hoffer does not, it is the perception of change, not the change itself, that creates revolution. This ties myth, the set of stories we tell ourselves as "truths", to the dynamic of change in perception. People cling to their myth, and when they abandon their faith in a myth structure they suddenly see things differently, the sequence is change, perception, revolution, and (often) violence as a final phase. They undergo a revolution when they let go of their myths. Of course they scramble around and adopt another set right away. When this happens in a large group or in a nation it pits the "leaders" against the people, at least for a moment. If a leader is skilled he can adapt and, often, feed a new myth to the people - if not he must decide to use force or to retire. The ordinary people of the middle east have found, I think, their myth set difficult to maintain in the face of cultural and economic changes wrought by Western and primarily American business. It looks to me like the "terrorist" leaders are feeding the need those people have to try to maintain their myth. Of course some people there have already developed new, revolutionary, views and myths, seldom pro western. Thus, naturally, they fight each other as well as the occupying forces. The 1897 experience the Brits had (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_the_Malakand_Field_Force ) in the Swat Valley strongly suggests to me that this difficulty with maintaining myth is at the heart of jehad and much other violence.

Now that I am no longer young and have a bit of time waiting for dispatches from the hiring hall (which I prefer to steady work) I am interested in the nature of conflict and trying to develop a metaphysics of conflict. Of course that ties into oil, bio-fuels and politics...and it's the basis of much of what I've said in this forum.

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