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Author Topic: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics  (Read 81177 times)

rmchambers

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2007, 09:18:49 PM »
You have mucho bigger balls than me trying to make anything out of urushiol.  Isn't that the active ingredient in poison ivy/oak/sumac?   You'd need to either not be allergic to those plants or be very very careful and well protected.

Do you have a lot of that stuff growing where you live?  Seems like a lot of risk for not a whole lot of gain to me but I'd love to hear more.

rbodell

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2007, 11:18:35 PM »
Okiezeke first, No actualy I have it in government bonds. For fear of what might explode here, I am probably one of the few people who has total faith in the American way. I beleive my government will do a good job no matter which party is elected. I also support whatever president no matter what partry he is because I beleive in the voting process. I honestly can not think of another country I would like to live in and it has done pretty good since columbus landed.

rbodell raises matters which incline me to believe that he is deeply and emotionally involved with, committed to, a set of popular concepts. Humans live by their myths. They're important. These myths can also mislead.

Actually very few people agree with everything I say. It would scare me if somebody did. Of course what I say is my opinion and like assholes everybody has one and nobody is going to to talk either one of us into exchanging either one. That is what makes America great, we can have our pinions and we can state them out loud. We can go to the poles and vote or sit back and let somebody decide for us. The very best thing is that if I decicde I don't like it here, I can leave and go someplace else. I know what it is like to have to escape from a country, it is not a good thing. 

I myself see these concepts as a mythology that has the net overall effect of creating inaccurate reasoning based on false assumptions, but in the interests of avoiding conflict I think it best to limit criticism to a few specific ideas he has put forth, claims, really, which I think are clearly unsupported. So a few questions for all - How is it that this military keeps anybody safe? What is the legal duty of the military? How is it good that a $2500 investment should allow a man to avoid working for the rest of his life?

How is not good? It is called free enterprise. I'd be a whole lot better off if I had baught $100 worth of McDonalds stock back then. Would you aprove of that? I could have done a whol lot of different things, but that is what I did and it paid off. Would you like to hear about the things I lost my ass on? There is a lot of them.

 If making money is the sole duty of a corporation why should they obey the law?

I didn't say it was the sole duty, I said it was the sole reason. Why do you go to work? My guess is to make money to buy things with. Why do you obey the law? Would staying out of jail be why?

If making money is the sole responsibility of an oil company why should they fail to take advantage of monopoly positions and, instead, produce more and therefore cheaper oil?

I also did not say thay money was the sole responsibility of an oil company. Please don't put words in my mouth. There are laws against monopolies and cheaper oil is good buisiness.

If oil companies ought not to pay taxes why should he?

If he is me, because I am not doing to bring buisines to my town, hiring people, raising the tax base etc.

Why should anybody?

For the same reason I do.

How is it that the government that he finds so wasteful, a "waste of money", provides the military that he finds so comforting?

Governments are inherently wastefull. I didnt say my government was a waste of money. I am sure it does waste4 a lot of money, but hay, it is a big organization. The bigger it is, the more room there is for people to come in and  take advantage of it by selling it 900 dollar hammers. There are also a lot of people who don't do their job and let the 900 dollar hammers slip through.

How is it that this supremely powerful military force is defeated by a ragtag militia with little more (and maybe less) than the Chinese People's Army had when they defeated their opponents, or than the NVA had in 'Nam? And finally, for the list seems very long already, does the US military demonstrate an understanding of violence? Of guerrilla war?

well personaly I would like to see us fight out enemies on their terms, but in considering out position in the wiorld, if we had put childrens heads on stakes in vietnam or purposly bombed school busses in Iraq, we would suffer a lot more in out position in the world. The down side is that we have people in congress telling the generals how to fight wars and that we can't shoot back.

I ask that we all consider and question his claims, both implicit and explicit, and learn from them.

Now see there, you could never take this attitude in the Sadam era Iraq. If you didn't support the government you would thrown into a shreder. Isn't America great.

Moving forward, Okiezeke remarked that the arab terrorists will soon enough get the bomb. I try to avoid that term, "terrorist" but sadly, I think, he's right. Szilard thought of the bomb back in 1932, and I can show you the patent he took out. 1932, September the 12th. He was waiting for a traffic light on a London street. It seems to me that it was at that exact moment when, poof! the idea came into existence, that the modern military state ended. What? Yep! Here's how: The state and the citizen have a deal, a contract. The citizen gives up his right to violence and even his right to life itself in exchange for the promise the state makes to protect him and allow him to make a living and to live. People who violate this deal are called criminal, or worse, and the deal worked after a fashion for some time. There was slaughter, for example the millions killed in the Great War, but the states survived, as did most of the people. But when Szilard thought of the bomb it became impossible for the state to keep the bargain. The history of states, since that moment, has been denouement. How can this "powerful" military stop one man on a donkey? Setting aside mythology, the fact is that there is only one "nuclear secret". That's where's the "poot". The remaining engineering data and practical skills necessary are within the grasp of a gifted individual or a small cadre of skilled amateurs. That's Ted Taylor's opinion - and he used to make 'em. No military force, and no state, can prevent really determined people, people like the ones so very motivated in Iraq, or Saudi, from doing real damage and worse, demonstrating the true nature of states for the credulous masses.

(Nations are another matter. Nations continue to have value, but I'll leave that for now.)

Seems to me that people are going to have to develop their own biofuel concepts, with little or no help from "big oil". This may not be so tough, but it'd be way easier if there were rational support from the government, as there was when Jimmy C got 'lected... Seems to me that the present course taken by Uncle and Big Oil, while motivated by a lust for a quick buck and a desire to prop up a moribund set of methods, is in reality (beware of unintended consiquences!) a prelude to revolution. Revolutions are a phenomon that occurs in perception, not in a physical reality. Revolution does not always involve violence. But revolution is often followed by violence as people attempt to gather power to themselves. It seems to me that this danger may interfere with peaceful and rational progress in fuel development. Me? I'm planting olive trees.



phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2007, 01:31:55 AM »
I rest my case
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

Quinnf

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2007, 02:36:43 AM »
Pithy quote:

"It is a well known fact, that those people who most
want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the  summary:  anyone  who  is  capable  of  getting
themselves  made  President should on no account be allowed to do
the job."

-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

rpg52

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2007, 07:28:42 AM »
So, phaedrus, you are going to extract urushiol from poison oak and make Listeroid fuel.  I admire your gumption.  I'm not very allergic but would hesitate even thinking about it.  You must have some substantial stands of poison oak to even consider it.  Best of luck to you, you likely could patent the process if it works.   :-X
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2007, 04:21:00 PM »
http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_5_10_07.htm

interesting book review and commentary that relates to the political conditions under which biofuel systems may develope.
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2007, 02:48:54 AM »
r bo,
Well, I do wholeheartedly agree that we had the great fortune to be born in the old USA.  Even with whatever problems, nowhere else I want to live.(Canada is OK too, folks)
You sound to me, to be determined to be happy.  Nothing wrong with that either.  Keep up the good work, brother.
Zeke
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Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
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rosietheriviter

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2007, 04:42:37 PM »
This has to be one of the hotest and coldest conversations I have ever tried to follow!
I see no issue with big business trying to get better deals, we all try to get the better end of the deal (at least, most of the time).
I think the problem is not just corporate greed but government sell out to big business!
Sure, we elected 'em Zeke and we can remove them - but I think we will see freeze warnings from the opening gates to the very center of hell first!

As Ross Perot used to say "I find it very interesting" that big oil claims lack of refinery capacity but has suddenly found that processing "normaly waste" products in the existing refineries will do ANYTHING to help the consumer in an way shape or form!  (Ross' saying in quotes only, not the entire sentence)

Why do dogs lick themselves? 'cause they can!
Low speed diesel engines........ Our glorious leaders have so graciously protected us from the evils of diesel engines - - - - -'cause they can!
They tax us nearly out of existance - 'cause they can!
There must NOT be a reasonably priced version of a low speed small diesel that meets our wonderful EPA requirements or we would be seeing advertisements for them!
Why are NO companies jumping on the low speed ci engine development and manufacturing bandwagon?
My reply here is not intended to hurt feelings nor to anger - just remember the truth sometimes hurts (and sometimes it hurts terribly!)
Vic

Vic,
It seems that you are or were a fan of Ross Perot.  I was very swayed by his first run at presidency.  It didn't take too long for me to realize that although he had a firm grip on the existance of problems, he seemed to have very little grasp on the possible solutions to the problems.
Having said that, what exactly are you trying to say in your message?

Rose is Rose
Any resembalance to any correct spelling, punctuation,or grammar is purely coincidental!

A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to his country, for an amount of "up to and including my life."

okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2007, 09:14:16 AM »
rbodell,
Will olive trees survive in east central oklahoma?  I'd like to try them as a fuel source, but always assumed I was too far north.  Arrow makes a super slow speed diesel work engine, fully EPA compliant.  They start at around $10k.  Oilfield stuff. Runs  forever.
Zeke
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

rbodell

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2007, 04:11:37 PM »
Your previous post:
Yes I am pretty determined to be happy. I can't see any benefit from not being happy. I do not have to disregard my toughts or feelings to keep my job any more. Dying is not something I fear, I don't need to associate with anybody I don't want to, I could care less what people think of me or if they even like me. Life is pretty darned good rite now and I am not going to let anything get in the way of that.

Now then, Olive trees? I am afraid I can't answer that one. Might be an interesting experiment though. They live in the middle east. Inimagine the temperature range would be the most important thing. It certainly would be a fun experiment and hay, if you like olive soup, olive stew and olive omlets, you got it made LOL.


rbodell,
Will olive trees survive in east central oklahoma?  I'd like to try them as a fuel source, but always assumed I was too far north.  Arrow makes a super slow speed diesel work engine, fully EPA compliant.  They start at around $10k.  Oilfield stuff. Runs  forever.
Zeke

rbodell

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2007, 04:28:28 PM »
here is some info on olive trees http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/olive.html

here are two ways to extract the oil http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/filelibrary/1271/24013.pdf

Here is how to build an olive press http://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/JF%20Olives.pdf

more on making olive oil http://members.iinet.net.au/~kookie/olives.html
.


rbodell,
Will olive trees survive in east central oklahoma?  I'd like to try them as a fuel source, but always assumed I was too far north.  Arrow makes a super slow speed diesel work engine, fully EPA compliant.  They start at around $10k.  Oilfield stuff. Runs  forever.
Zeke

phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2007, 01:26:24 AM »
Another point of view and some interesting remarks at http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=554173 .  The better one is able to set aside the mythological filter of American exceptionalism the more interesting the idea are, whatever we may think of the writer himself...
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

rosietheriviter

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2007, 08:34:57 AM »
Hey Vic, I intended no personal offense and, actually, was satisfied that I had not made one when I pointed out that conflating a legalistic fiction (the corporation) with individual people did, as a logical error, undermine your position. You yourself pointed out some of the important differences. Skill in oration does not seem to be involved, corporations are not people. People are moral creatures that can and often do make moral choices and, as you point out, corporate decisions do not involve morality. The two "creatures" are therefore not the same, so we agree. Please don't take offense, none intended.

Hi Phaedrus,
This argument is getting very hard to follow.  I was an aerospace worker for twenty-two odd years, started on Voyager and ended up working on Endeavor.  I can assure you that our union, the united aerospace workers, rank and file never ever voted to lower our demands for moral or altruistic reasons and I'm pretty certain that JPL and Rockwell never discussed the moral or humane concept of higher wages or better benefits.  I think Vic is right in saying that corporations look at the bottom line $$$$ only.  I suppose they have no real choice.
Were I "Tyson-Conoco/Phillips" I would jump at the offer of $175,000,000 from the U.S.Government - or any other source for that matter.  The terrible truth is that the government made or honored the offer!  I hope I did >not< understand anyone to say that T-C/P was dishonest in applying for and or for accepting the $$?
My beef is with the government, not with T-C/P.

Looking for a solution? investigate the "free state project" www.freeme.org
Politics as we know it will not supply a solution.

Rose is Rose
Any resembalance to any correct spelling, punctuation,or grammar is purely coincidental!

A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to his country, for an amount of "up to and including my life."

phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2007, 04:10:26 PM »
Hi Rosie!

"argument"? Naw, "discussion"? Yep. 

I suppose it's our structure of knowing, our tao, that we value according to a monetary structure. Nevertheless I have some doubt that union agendas and corporate agendas are so closely aligned. For example, my local and, more generally, the Northern California Carpenters, spend considerable money on the apprenticeship program and on continuing education for membership - we are looking to the future, not the next quarterly statement. Is this altruism? I suppose not, Is it responsible? I think so. Of course, unlike corporate structures and unlike "government" our union leadership is directly elected, and there are no phoney electronic gizmos involved, only paper ballots!

Meantime, has anybody read "comrade comandante" (url above) on the matter of food price increases attendant to the bio-fuel agenda?

He makes a logical argument and supports it with facts and figures. His argument looks pretty solid to me, but of course, bio-fuel will go ahead. This, then, leaves a very interesting matter. Given that the bio fuel program will go ahead and assuming that it does create increased poverty and hunger, especially in the South, what demographic and/or political results are likely to occur? Actions have consequences. What may be expected?

Phaedrus
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2007, 10:05:35 PM »
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...