Puppeteer

Author Topic: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics  (Read 81457 times)

rmchambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2007, 01:38:51 PM »
Not sure this is relevant but not worth a thread of its own.  I heat my house and hot water with oil fired burners.  I have a woodstove too but I only burn that until my woodpile is gone (it helps).

My oil tank is down to 1/8 (out of 275 gallons) so I called my oil company.  I asked them "do you have biofuel?" and the guy was very happy to tell me all about it - turns out I wound up telling HIM more about it than he did me but I digress.

My oil company sells what they call B5  - 5% Biofuel mixed with 95% regular heating oil.  Not a huge amount but it's a start.  At least it's something that can be produced on this countries soil.  He did tell me that my filters might clog up as the biofuel tends to dislodge and dissolve sludge which we all know from biodiesel conversion stories.

I just figured it was kind of cool that biofuel is getting to be mainstream.  He said as it gains wider acceptance they will up the percentages to 10% and as high as 20%.  He said beyond that they worry about seals getting softened.  In due course I'm sure all the replacement seals will by vyton and impervious to biofuels.

The nice thing is it's the same price as straight heating oil.

Robert

villageidjit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2007, 10:19:34 AM »
This has to be one of the hotest and coldest conversations I have ever tried to follow!
I see no issue with big business trying to get better deals, we all try to get the better end of the deal (at least, most of the time).
I think the problem is not just corporate greed but government sell out to big business!

Sure, we elected 'em Zeke and we can remove them - but I think we will see freeze warnings from the opening gates to the very center of hell first!

As Ross Perot used to say "I find it very interesting" that big oil claims lack of refinery capacity but has suddenly found that processing "normaly waste" products in the existing refineries will do ANYTHING to help the consumer in an way shape or form!  (Ross' saying in quotes only, not the entire sentence)

Why do dogs lick themselves? 'cause they can!

Low speed diesel engines........ Our glorious leaders have so graciously protected us from the evils of diesel engines - - - - -'cause they can!

They tax us nearly out of existance - 'cause they can!

There must NOT be a reasonably priced version of a low speed small diesel that meets our wonderful EPA requirements or we would be seeing advertisements for them!
Why are NO companies jumping on the low speed ci engine development and manufacturing bandwagon?

My reply here is not intended to hurt feelings nor to anger - just remember the truth sometimes hurts (and sometimes it hurts terribly!)

Vic
Somewhere in the Ozark Mountains, the Village Idiot is missing!

phaedrus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2007, 04:14:24 PM »
"Getting a better deal"? Nice name for it.  And conflating a corporation with an individual - Vic, you know better! This weakens your position. If a fella cuts out the middle man and steals they call 'im a crook. But when big oil "has metering problems" or "forgets" to pay for oil it gets from the people, that own the oil - that's forgiven. First ya pass a "law" that makes it legal to do this, of course. Rather like some German gentlemen of the 1930's and first half of the 1940's....all or mostly pretty "legal" What was it Dylan said, about robbing ya with a pen? They do, 'cause we let 'em. Only practical way to deal with this reality is to avoid playing the game as much as ya can, the alternative leads to being called a bad word..."commie", "evildoer", or "turrust" or whatever...

'lections consist of a "choice" between two individuals who are both beholding to approximately the same special interests - not a dimes' worth of difference most of the time. That's "democracy"? Some people might call it something else...
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

okiezeke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2007, 01:22:46 AM »
Democracy,
Your durn right!  We get to pick which low down skunk, liar, cheat, thief, we want.  No honest man would be in politics anyway.  Even if he was honest(Carter?), the rest of the crooks in washington wouldnt let him do anything different.  Soon the arab terrorists will have the bomb, and we'll get to start over.  Will we do any better the second time?  Probably not.  "The masses are asses" H.L. Mencken.
Zeke
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

villageidjit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2007, 06:17:07 AM »
"Getting a better deal"? Nice name for it.  And conflating a corporation with an individual - Vic, you know better! This weakens your position. If a fella cuts out the middle man and steals they call 'im a crook. But when big oil "has metering problems" or "forgets" to pay for oil it gets from the people, that own the oil - that's forgiven. First ya pass a "law" that makes it legal to do this, of course. Rather like some German gentlemen of the 1930's and first half of the 1940's....all or mostly pretty "legal" What was it Dylan said, about robbing ya with a pen? They do, 'cause we let 'em. Only practical way to deal with this reality is to avoid playing the game as much as ya can, the alternative leads to being called a bad word..."commie", "evildoer", or "turrust" or whatever...

'lections consist of a "choice" between two individuals who are both beholding to approximately the same special interests - not a dimes' worth of difference most of the time. That's "democracy"? Some people might call it something else...

Wow, Phaedrus,
My position cannot be modified nor weakened just because of my lack of oration skills.

Big business has nearly ALWAYS taken advantage of any and all laws, loopholes, legal and physical powers!  We have seen the enemy and it is us!

Shakespeare said "first, kill all the lawers!" He was not very wrong!  You, I, or anyone else are not able to live a single day without breaking some law.

Most all politicians (at least at Federal level) are attorneys and they are taught how to bypass the law.

A true democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what is for dinner!

Our political system is in shambles and it is mostly OUR fault.  The problem being discussed in this thread is political, not business morality.  After reaching a certain size, business has absolutely no morality.  I could describe many examples but we all know (in my dimwitted opinion) that politics and our allowance of the misbehaviour of our representives (elected and otherwise) is rampant.  Until each and every one of us is able to vote our heart and/or conscience, there will be no change - except maybe by revolt.

The very best of us has a certain amount of selfishness, why should big business or politicians be assumed to be any different?  How could we believe that the corporate board meetings address the "fairness" or "morality" of ANY business descision?

Off my soapbox for now, it seems to me that this thread is becoming non-productive.

I have the utmost respect for each of the members contributing to this thread in spite of the fact that I see the evil that exists in politics and see no human way to fix the problem.

Phaedrus, I do not think your response to me was an indication that you had "slipped the hammer thong off of your Colt", I think it was more of a frustrated "knee-jerk" on your part.

Thanks for listening to my rambling.

Vic
Somewhere in the Ozark Mountains, the Village Idiot is missing!

phaedrus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2007, 04:41:14 PM »
Hey Vic, I intended no personal offense and, actually, was satisfied that I had not made one when I pointed out that conflating a legalistic fiction (the corporation) with individual people did, as a logical error, undermine your position. You yourself pointed out some of the important differences. Skill in oration does not seem to be involved, corporations are not people. People are moral creatures that can and often do make moral choices and, as you point out, corporate decisions do not involve morality. The two "creatures" are therefore not the same, so we agree. Please don't take offense, none intended.

I like your example of democracy...   Leo Szilard made a similar example in "The Voice of the Dolphins" when he said that in America two idiots out-vote one genius. Even idiots can often make good choices, however, if there is honest media.

The corporate system has, as one product, a heavy hand in the political process and the creation of self-serving laws. In the law this is recognized in a sort of backhanded way, as "mala prohibita" law and "mala in se" law. One prohibits acts "because we say so" and the other prohibits acts because they are "inherently wrong". Getting EPA to prohibit l'oids is an example of the former kind of law, so are so-called "gun laws" and the silly motorcycle helmet laws and so on. Anyway, it is corporate power that vets candidates for office and keeps 'em there, often by means of media they control. This is because they have control of so much money, the ready fuel of politics. As they take advantage of and create the opportunities to make profitable fuel out of biological materials they raise the price of food. Poor people then get less to eat. When people object to this victimization they tend to run afoul of "the law". Absent the amoral corporation it seems doubtful that so neat an arrangement would occur.

Without corporate expansionism and dominance of government one is inclined to wonder - would control of the cheap oil of the Middle East be a "foreign policy" goal? Would the US have invaded and occupied a foreign country if this was not a corporate agenda? Would, absent corporate co-option, government on the grand scale of "ours" not be more interested in developing solar resources and synthetic oil from coal than in foreign imperialism?

The only practical defense at this time, and this is defense in degree only, it is not a cure-all, is to use the lawyers and the political system ourselves, so far as we can. When I consider the alternative to having lawyers I think I prefer the ability I have at present - the ability to go into court with the toughest lawyer I can hire. But when I consider the alternative to having corporations as they presently exist - well, that does seem interesting. Following the developing revolutionary change in the way people live, following the train-wreck of peak oil and climate change, it may be possible to re-gain political and legal control of the corporate beasts. To harness 'em to genuine common interest goals. It may occur. That would be interesting to watch. Meanwhile, on the local level, the political process does seem to me to work fairly well. This is, however, a local view in a small rural county. We have a good sensible sheriff, an easygoing building department and a pretty nice jail, a nitwitted game warden (only one!), good fire department, and the county has no intention of paving any more roads. We ran the crank labs out of the county and there's still some industry so ordinary people can make a living. There seems to me to be more danger from bears and lions hereabouts than from people, unless a fella is a thief.

If one reads the history of the Republican Party one will see the struggle there between popular control of the party (the progressive movement) and corporate control. It seems that this struggle occurred with that party because their progressive liberal agenda tended to reduce corporate profits. The squeaky wheel got the grease, or maybe the shaft...thus leaving the liberal and progressive agenda to the Democratic Party - which waves that flag and spouts that talk while it follows the corporate money, not that they don't throw us a bone now and then... The presently ongoing self-destruction of that party seems to me to promise some hope of a more liberal future, important in order to adapt to the onrushing waves of change.

And change is blasting towards us all. As Zeke points out, the arabs will soon enough have the gadget, (if they don't already). And Carter? Recall that he had a fuel policy to develop domestic solutions - which ray-gun axed, just as he busted unions. So, let us bring this back to the point - what will the political effects of corporate bio-fuel agendas be inside the US when they set one off? How can bio-fuel engineering be perverted to loot the common (american) man and crises developes?

Best,

Phaedrus
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

CD in BC

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2007, 06:20:42 PM »
This is without a doubt the most erudite and informative thread I've seen on this forum.

My own small contribution...

No system can be designed to work with people who are lazy, corrupt, selfish and short-sighted, and every society fails when those moral failures reach a certain critical mass. 

The 'managerial class' in North America has reached a point of amorality and greed which if it proves nothing else, proves that they have little or no confidence in our collective future and intend to grab as much as they can, as fast as they can.   When CEO's leaving for poor performance get $200. Million dollar 'golden parachutes', you wonder if they know something about the landing area the rest of us don't.

The second Iraq war was primarily about preserving the US dollar as the 'petro-dollar'.  If OPEC begins to trade oil in Euros or some other currency to any significant degree, the US balance of payments system will collapse, causing a depression like nothing ever seen before.  http://www.energybulletin.net/2455.html

How we got into this mess is explained here: http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/2222/Is_America_Going_Broke and here, http://www.amazon.com/Dollar-Crisis-Causes-Consequences-Cures/dp/0470821027

How do we get out of it?  We probably won't. 

Will democracy survive the collapse?  It may well not.

"Iceberg dead ahead."

Human history is a jagged graph, not a smooth upward continuum. 

okiezeke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2007, 10:14:14 PM »
Downward??
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

rbodell

  • Guest
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2007, 10:46:42 PM »
Bill
What exactly is the problem you see here?  What is it htat you find offensive?  I as an owner of various public companies (and anyone who has a pension or 401K) expect that these public companies do everything in their power to maximize returns for shareholders (you and me).  That is their fiduciary duty, and nothing less than their best efforts is acceptable.  If this goes to the next level and the courts find that they do not qualify for the blending incentive then they do not get them. 

Personally I do not think they should get the credits, but as a shareholder I expect them they try.

Scott


I don't see anything wrong with it either, we all complain about not enough being done to make alternative and bio fuels part of the norm, but who is better equiped both monitarily and financialy to do it? Big oil of course. Lets face it, if everybody in the group put every dime we had together, how big of a dent could we make in bringing alternative energy into being?

Everybody acuses them of holding back on the alternative energy market, but good lord man, they are doing what they do to MAKE MONEY, nothing else.

I guess I am not going to make any brownie points here, but I am one of the very few that is not unhappy with what I pay in taxes.I get one heck of a deal man, for the pittence I pay in taxes i get to live in the biggest, strongest and nicest countries in the world and I have the biggest strongest militaries here to keep me safe. I have a police department, fire departments, clean water and electricity if I choose to uise it. Last year I sold a piece of Florida property I paid 2500 dollars for when I was a teen ager for enough that I will never have to work again as long as I live. My acountant doesn't play games, she goes by the book. My land and home are paid for and all I have to do is spend my intrest check before the next one comes. I give a vet a free place to live. His electric bill for one month is more than my taxes were for the entire year last year and I don't even claim homestead exemption. Heck I even sent the IRS an extra 500 dollars this year to go to nasa.

Now then, I don't believe in giving the oil companies exemptions. I don't think they should pay any taxes at all. Man I can hear the teeth knashing over that one lOL. Hay. they are into making money. The more money the make the more research they will be doing to make more money. he more research they do and the more they expand the more people they hire. The more they research the more alternative energy they produce and the more oil they find. They build proceessing plants. they hire local people to build them. They bring in people to an area. Those people need homes and stores to shop at. They need scientists and floor sweepers. They need doctors and lawyers.

We know government is not going to use that tax money as good as the oil companies and big buisines will. Governments are a great waste of money. heck, nasa is the only government entity that actualy shows a profit with their money, a big profit. For every dollar they get, they put 7 into the economy.

okiezeke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2007, 12:49:45 AM »
Rbo,
There's a lot of truth in your comments, but you're looking in the present.  Now I'll be the first to admit that what we old farts do best is sit around and complain that the younger generation has gont to hell in a handbasket.  But.  There are some really disturbing trends.  Even with all the tooth gnashing, the common message is   " be prepared."  Don't panic.  Dont run amok.  Enjoy life in the best country on the planet.  Give money to NASA(I would if I had any).  BUT.  Be prepared.

I'm happy your land deal worked out well for you.  Is all your money in a NYC bank?  The arab(and/or persian)  America haters are genuinely crazy.    The only reason they havent nuked us yet is lack of ability.  Will your wealth disappear with NYC? I hope it never happens, but a glance at history shows some pretty grim trends of world powers and their fall.  It's easy to have something to fall back on just in case.  Am I a somewhat paranoid survivalist?  I guess so.  Everyone needs a hobby.
Zeke
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

phaedrus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2007, 06:47:22 AM »
rbodell raises matters which incline me to believe that he is deeply and emotionally involved with, committed to, a set of popular concepts. Humans live by their myths. They're important. These myths can also mislead.

I myself see these concepts as a mythology that has the net overall effect of creating inaccurate reasoning based on false assumptions, but in the interests of avoiding conflict I think it best to limit criticism to a few specific ideas he has put forth, claims, really, which I think are clearly unsupported. So a few questions for all - How is it that this military keeps anybody safe? What is the legal duty of the military? How is it good that a $2500 investment should allow a man to avoid working for the rest of his life? If making money is the sole duty of a corporation why should they obey the law? If making money is the sole responsibility of an oil company why should they fail to take advantage of monopoly positions and, instead, produce more and therefore cheaper oil? If oil companies ought not to pay taxes why should he? Why should anybody? How is it that the government that he finds so wasteful, a "waste of money", provides the military that he finds so comforting? How is it that this supremely powerful military force is defeated by a ragtag militia with little more (and maybe less) than the Chinese People's Army had when they defeated their opponents, or than the NVA had in 'Nam? And finally, for the list seems very long already, does the US military demonstrate an understanding of violence? Of guerrilla war?

I ask that we all consider and question his claims, both implicit and explicit, and learn from them.

Moving forward, Okiezeke remarked that the arab terrorists will soon enough get the bomb. I try to avoid that term, "terrorist" but sadly, I think, he's right. Szilard thought of the bomb back in 1932, and I can show you the patent he took out. 1932, September the 12th. He was waiting for a traffic light on a London street. It seems to me that it was at that exact moment when, poof! the idea came into existence, that the modern military state ended. What? Yep! Here's how: The state and the citizen have a deal, a contract. The citizen gives up his right to violence and even his right to life itself in exchange for the promise the state makes to protect him and allow him to make a living and to live. People who violate this deal are called criminal, or worse, and the deal worked after a fashion for some time. There was slaughter, for example the millions killed in the Great War, but the states survived, as did most of the people. But when Szilard thought of the bomb it became impossible for the state to keep the bargain. The history of states, since that moment, has been denouement. How can this "powerful" military stop one man on a donkey? Setting aside mythology, the fact is that there is only one "nuclear secret". That's where's the "poot". The remaining engineering data and practical skills necessary are within the grasp of a gifted individual or a small cadre of skilled amateurs. That's Ted Taylor's opinion - and he used to make 'em. No military force, and no state, can prevent really determined people, people like the ones so very motivated in Iraq, or Saudi, from doing real damage and worse, demonstrating the true nature of states for the credulous masses.

(Nations are another matter. Nations continue to have value, but I'll leave that for now.)

Seems to me that people are going to have to develop their own biofuel concepts, with little or no help from "big oil". This may not be so tough, but it'd be way easier if there were rational support from the government, as there was when Jimmy C got 'lected... Seems to me that the present course taken by Uncle and Big Oil, while motivated by a lust for a quick buck and a desire to prop up a moribund set of methods, is in reality (beware of unintended consiquences!) a prelude to revolution. Revolutions are a phenomon that occurs in perception, not in a physical reality. Revolution does not always involve violence. But revolution is often followed by violence as people attempt to gather power to themselves. It seems to me that this danger may interfere with peaceful and rational progress in fuel development. Me? I'm planting olive trees.

if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

sid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2007, 12:50:24 PM »
$2500 investe in several blue chip stock in 1970 will let up retire and not have to work again/but retiring too early is a bummer too,,,you can just collect some many engines ,etc..I retired 10 years early and the biggest problem  is boredom and keep your health//most people are less healthy because of the slow pace of live.not enough exercise...I finally started doing part time work for my co, and all it does is put me in a higher tax bracket//but on the good side I get to go to a lot of engine shows and not have too worry if i will have the time off,,also bed time is when you get sleepy and you get up when you wake up// that is the best thing about retirement , not having to set a clock/now it is the trip and not the destination..//sid/
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

rpg52

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2007, 03:22:21 PM »
Not particularly related to this thread, but, I have a theory regarding money.  It seems to me that money, in excess, is toxic.  Only when one is hungry enough does one have the incentive to get out of bed and pursue the golden ring.  How many Hollywood millionaires are truely happy?  Does Bill Gates truely enjoy his billions?  Don't know the answer to either question, but it seems that most people are made ill (either mentally or physically) by too much money.  Speaking for myself, I've done my best to ignore it, making sure I have enough, but not so much that I don't feel the need to scrabble about a bit to get by.  In my case, other than volunteering, I try to grow much of my own food.  Maybe I just don't have sufficient shopping opportunities, but I can't buy food as good as what I grow.  Kind of like the song about home grown tomatoes, if you know it. 

The exact relationship between my philosophical meanderings and Tyson-Conoco/Phillips biodiesel politics I can't say.   :)
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

rmchambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2007, 03:49:50 PM »
It's somewhat related to the whole "fend for yourself" philosophy that I'd guess the majority of us on this forum aspire to.  We wouldn't be investigating and or producing our own power if we didn't.

Growing your own food is honest labor, you KNOW what's in the food because you grew it and tended it.  It may sound like an easy thing to grow your own food but which foods do you plant?  when do you plant them? how can you store/preserve them?  Important skills that our forefathers all knew but has been de-educated out of the mainstream collective knowledge.

Sure it tastes better, it's not been in a truck for a week getting to market, picked prior to ripening so it doesn't spoil enroute.  Plus since you grew it, the satisfaction factor makes it taste better.  The same way wood you cut/split/stacked yourself heats you up a lot better than a load of firewood you had delivered.

Robert

phaedrus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2007, 08:39:13 PM »
Tend your own garden - Voltair's lesson from Candide                          Yes, and we got some killer strawberries this year!

what do you do before enlightenment? chop wood carry water (and garden)

what do you do after enlightenment? chop wood carry water (and garden)

and, in our particular case, make olive (and other) oils, (or at least that's the plan)

working on the "enlightenment" aspect...

And have an idea about solvent extracting and then cracking urushiol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol) with the goal of producing a semisynthethic fuel for the l'iod...  can't help thinking while ya carry water and chop wood...   Urushiol looks like it might make a base stock for some new plastics, too. made w/o petroleum, of course.
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...