Author Topic: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info  (Read 8818 times)

jzeldorado

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« on: April 06, 2007, 11:22:58 PM »
i've got a lister st2 diesel genset that's been sittin around waiting for some tlc.  i started tearing the engine apart because it was all sooty and greasy. the manual calls for pain.  rear seal is leaking(accordig to manual) so i removed the xhaust man/intake man, and the air duct.  broken xhaust man on both cyls.  sooty and greasy beyond imagination, although one cyl wasn't so bad.  someone put in the center duct backwards.  hmm.  anyway the injectors were loose, too.  apparently the soot and grease that wasn't on the engine, was drawn into the generator, and covers everything that doesn't touch something that spins.  how do i clean this mess up without destroying the varnish/insulation wiring, agghhh.  help.  i got a great deal, and have worked on other engines, but this project needs knoweldgeable advise.  sooooo! here i am, seeking your assistance.  for your info, the generator is a Newage Stamford 3ph, 9 KVA, type D8C, cont rating, pf 0.8, 60hz, 220/127volts, 23.6 amps.  exciter is 75v@2.45amps.  any and all direction is appreciated.  Jack.  email or on the site.

dkwflight

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2007, 12:31:21 AM »
Hi

I am thinking mild soap and water for the windings?
Then dry the windings. You may need a low temp oven or you could wire a light bulb in series with the windings. The low load will dry the winding in time.
A meg-ohm meter will help determine the dryness and how good the insulation is in the windings.

I would not want any strong solvent for sure.

Anyhting non-electric you could steam and dry and paint.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

draganof

  • Keeper of a Mighty Changfa
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2007, 04:40:40 AM »
i've got a lister st2 diesel genset that's been sittin around waiting for some tlc.  i started tearing the engine apart because it was all sooty and greasy. the manual calls for pain.  rear seal is leaking(accordig to manual) so i removed the xhaust man/intake man, and the air duct.  broken xhaust man on both cyls.  sooty and greasy beyond imagination, although one cyl wasn't so bad.  someone put in the center duct backwards.  hmm.  anyway the injectors were loose, too.  apparently the soot and grease that wasn't on the engine, was drawn into the generator, and covers everything that doesn't touch something that spins.  how do i clean this mess up without destroying the varnish/insulation wiring, agghhh.  help.  i got a great deal, and have worked on other engines, but this project needs knoweldgeable advise.  sooooo! here i am, seeking your assistance.  for your info, the generator is a Newage Stamford 3ph, 9 KVA, type D8C, cont rating, pf 0.8, 60hz, 220/127volts, 23.6 amps.  exciter is 75v@2.45amps.  any and all direction is appreciated.  Jack.  email or on the site.

The standard procedure that we use at work is hot soapy water (simple green) followed by lots of clear cold water as a rinse. Repeat until all the grease and grime is gone. Then forced air heat blowing through the generator for at least 3-4 days. Megger the windings  before and after so you will know when all the moisture is gone. Been doing it this way for 30+ years. Don't like to use any type of solvent on the windings. Just soap and water. Actually saw a customer use a pressure washer on a generator rotor and stator one time, took the varnish right off the windings! The re-wind shop loved it, they only charged $25,000.00 for a re-wind,dip and bake.

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

jzeldorado

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2007, 07:41:38 PM »
a thousand thankyou's.  i did the wrong thing to some electronics gear some years past and the whole thing melted into a puddle of plastic and electronics. 
i do have another question.  i have a small 120 volt space heater that i could use.  should i try to pull, or push the warm air thru the housing?  also, should i stay away from soaking the entire unit for any length of time, such as in a tub of green & water, or should i keep the water flushing the goop out?  thanks, saved again. 

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2007, 09:41:30 PM »
They make sopecial solvents for degreasing windings, but Naptha seems to do just as good a job.

You want something that will soften grease but not so agressive it tries to make the varnish flow. Xylene will make varnish flow, thats what we use in the first place to thin a drum of PD George lol.

Naptha also flashes off quick so it won't sit there long.

I've also used a lot of soaps but don't use anything desinged to remove crude like an engine shampoo, thats too agressive!

I used a presure washer and steam generator, especialy on stuff covered in things I never wanted to get to close too like a flooded out sewage lift pump. The importatnt thing is not to shock the insualtion with a boiling water or at too high a presure. You just want the water as hot as you canstand to put your hands in and low enough presure to slowly remove the dirt.

Compressed air can also cause you grief, I believe the figuere we were not allowed to exceed was 20 PSI to remove dust, so that should give you some idication how soft my presure washer was set.

Drying with warm flowing air is good, so it running a low current threw the windings. Sticking a wert winding in a hot oven is bad, we warmed them from about 120F to 220 F over a periode of 6 to 12 hours depending on the size of the machine. You want the machine to warm up evenly and not boil the water out of some places while its liquid in others.

Once it warn and dry take a reading, then again when its cool. Odds are you hot reading will be significantly lower than your cool one, don't be alarmed....
If you can mange to get it clean dry and cool with a minimum of 5 meg and if its never been coated with glypotal 1201 Iwould thin the varnish with some xylene so it realy penetrates well and brush that in 3 or 4 coats. This will help seal up the cracks in the insuation and hwlp bind everything together. If you have the money to spend I'd look at having the machined warmed up and dipped again followed by a bake. If you don't then after three of four coats of the thinned gyptal aply a few more coats at regular thickness untill the winding is shiny and fully coated followed by some heat ( 200 F range ) if possibly.

Try and get that varnish ( glypatl or elelctrical air dry type both are fine ) in ever nook and crany

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

draganof

  • Keeper of a Mighty Changfa
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 03:07:44 AM »
a thousand thankyou's.  i did the wrong thing to some electronics gear some years past and the whole thing melted into a puddle of plastic and electronics. 
i do have another question.  i have a small 120 volt space heater that i could use.  should i try to pull, or push the warm air thru the housing?  also, should i stay away from soaking the entire unit for any length of time, such as in a tub of green & water, or should i keep the water flushing the goop out?  thanks, saved again. 

The procedure we use is mix simple green with water as you would to clean up any normal oily type job. We use a pump up garden sprayer and coat the windings and let it sit for about 5 minutes. Rinse with hot water and if still dirty repeat the process. Once your satisfied its clean then a good rinsing with cool water until the water dripping out doesn't taste soapy. We then setup a space heater to blow warm air through the unit. We keep the temperature around 110 degrees for 2-3 days and then will do a megger test. We have a 100% success rate with this procedure. We had a 50-60% success rate when we used solvent supplied by Cat. On units that are still hooked up to the engine we will start the engine and run it at rated speed for 2-3 minutes to speed up the drying time. Of course we pull leads off the rotor to prevent any voltage build up during the run.

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 03:47:29 AM »
I used a product called "electro clean", I suspect it was Perc or something simmilar and had a high flash speed. It never ruined a winding but it went threw my skin as fast as grease ( I left the rewind shops because too many friends got sick and I always felt like crap ) , another reason I don't trust anything other solvent than naptha to clean.

Had a foreman who washed his hands in Xylene a lot to get the varnish off, his liver pack it in early.
Had another foreman develop a brain cancer.

What were you using John?
CAT has a electrical/electronic cleaner and degreaser was that it?
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

rmchambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 05:10:51 AM »
I used a product called "electro clean", I suspect it was Perc or something simmilar and had a high flash speed. It never ruined a winding but it went threw my skin as fast as grease ( I left the rewind shops because too many friends got sick and I always felt like crap ) , another reason I don't trust anything other solvent than naptha to clean.

Had a foreman who washed his hands in Xylene a lot to get the varnish off, his liver pack it in early.
Had another foreman develop a brain cancer.

What were you using John?
CAT has a electrical/electronic cleaner and degreaser was that it?

Perchloroethane is bad stuff, it's a great solvent but it will dissolve all your skin oils and turn your skin a sickly white.  Going that deep into your skin I'm sure it winds up inside you too.  Nitrile gloves whenever you mess with this stuff.

Xylene is another awful chemical, my dad used to work with it in the semiconductor industry and he hated the stuff because it was so harmful.  Made me cringe to hear about someone using it to wash his hands.

As a matter of fact I bought two huge boxes of nitrile gloves off Ebay and I wear them whenever I work on something dirty or greasy, painting, oil change, oil burner service, servicing the car, servicing my battery bank etc.  They are cheap enough that it's easier to use them and throw away than have to clean your hands afterwards.  Mind you if they don't get too dirty then you can use them again.

Robert

draganof

  • Keeper of a Mighty Changfa
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 02:28:19 PM »
Its been so long ago now I don't remember the name or p/n of the solvent we were using. I do however remember getting sick a lot during that time. I think our biggest problem was it was being used in confined areas with very little ventilation. I think one of the reasons we had marginal success with it is do to the fact we were in such a hurry to get the hell away from the fumes. When we switched to the soap and hot water method we did a much better job. I remember a long time ago the first time I saw someone using the disposable gloves and thought to myself why bother? I use them now every time I get near any solvent. When I was a teenager it was common practice to wash our hands with gas to remove grease. Good thing we have wised up using gloves and orange hand cleaner now.

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

jzeldorado

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 03:25:04 PM »
gentlemen, your discussions are invaluable.  i've learned more here than any manual i have, that are supposed to describe the techniques for working on stuff(techyterm).  a gal of greeen is in my shop, and i plan on dangling the generator over a barrel to wash it.  i was wondering, tho, were you all totally disassembling the rotor from the windings?  i will await advise before i continue.  also, i need some brushes for this unit.  there is still some left, 1/8 on one, not enough to run, me thinks.  where do you go for parts?  i don't have a meg tester, but one is on craigs list for $25.  1 1/2 hr drive.  good deal?  sounds like i need it, even if for this one job.  any advise on pulling the flywheel and replacing the rear seal?  i have the "approved" manual, but isn't complete enuf for me.  strong-like bull, smart-like tractor.

draganof

  • Keeper of a Mighty Changfa
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 07:16:42 PM »
gentlemen, your discussions are invaluable.  i've learned more here than any manual i have, that are supposed to describe the techniques for working on stuff(techyterm).  a gal of greeen is in my shop, and i plan on dangling the generator over a barrel to wash it.  i was wondering, tho, were you all totally disassembling the rotor from the windings?  i will await advise before i continue.  also, i need some brushes for this unit.  there is still some left, 1/8 on one, not enough to run, me thinks.  where do you go for parts?  i don't have a meg tester, but one is on craigs list for $25.  1 1/2 hr drive.  good deal?  sounds like i need it, even if for this one job.  any advise on pulling the flywheel and replacing the rear seal?  i have the "approved" manual, but isn't complete enuf for me.  strong-like bull, smart-like tractor.
The only time we remove the rotor from a generator is when we are changing the bearings and 90% of the time we will change out the rear seal on the engine if it shows any sign of leaking. I wouldn't recommend hanging the rotor and cleaning it. The soap will end up migrating into the bearings and that's not good. If you clean the generator rotor and stator in place there is little chance of the soap getting into the bearing. Look on the internet for a local dealer for your generator and they will be able to get you the brushes you need. If none are near you try a local motor rewind shop they have all the sources.

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

jzeldorado

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 12:22:00 AM »
thanks, all, i'll let you know how it goes.  i'll do some pics before/after.  it usually helps me go slower, and remember the gunk. JZ

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 02:11:52 AM »
Unlike John I was almost exclusively sent just the generator so the rear bearing was always changed ( we bought them in bulk and had a stock of just about everything ).

I wasn't very smart back then about chemicals and I didn't learn untill much later.

Resperators are only as good as the cartrages. Since my god father was a body man he told me that using old filters and not storing them in an air tight can they had soaked up all the crud they could probably filter and weren't, doing their job.

I worked right next to the dip tank and wasn't allowed to smoke, only later did I learn the low level fumes constantly coming off that tank were probably not doing my liver any good.

Painting, I probably wasn't any better off than the fellow in the Vijhada video.

Pouring epoxy, never new what was in polyester resin and still don't but that sickly sweet solvent smell sticks with me.

I opened up one of my old winding books the other night and the smell of varnish and grease is still in those pages. I dropped by the shops where I used to work for some quotes on ballancing and dipping and the old smells brought back a lot of memories. George died of lung cancer a year last fall, Cliff had liver trouble but a stroke took him about 12 years ago, Tom had a brain cancer, that was hard to watch because he kept coming in to work untill the owner told him to stay home. Bob was a good guy too the owner of one of the shops, he'd come in at 3 AM and cook steaks and eggs when an all nighter was needed to get a machine rebuilt.. He'd been retired for several years but was running a back hoe in my yard just a couple of days before, a realy great guy who's death still bothers me ( also used to hide little Rum bottles every where you might find the need to mix a drink what a character! )

There was one more drum of stuff, can't remmeber what it was " the drum of last resort "...
It was nastey stuff that bit at the back of your throte and we would hang armatures in it that were too far gone for a conventional wash or chemical clean. It leaked on us and one morning stripped the paint off the floor all the way to the drain....

Chemicals are bad, I use Nitril gloves and a reperator for everything now from paint to brake clean.

Doug

It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

aqmxv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Duty Now for the Future
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 08:20:56 PM »
Chlorinated solvents like percloroethane and tricloroethylene are baaaad for your liver!  Very bad.  The one good news item is that if you stay away from the chloro solvent for a few years/decades, your liver will eventually repair itself if it wasn't too badly damaged.

Ever since an exposure to TCE back in my impressionable youth left me with elevated liver panels for a decade I've been pretty cautious around them.  Don't even like to get spray brake cleaner on my hands if I can avoid it.

The other problem with these strong chlorinated solvents (which also appear in things like varsol) is that they migrate into your bloodstream trans-dermally.  No cuts required.  Breathing the fumes is worse, still, because your lungs are optimized to transpire gases, and your skin pretty much isn't.

6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen

kltrider

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
Re: greasey head, newage stamford. need any info
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2007, 06:57:48 AM »
Please Use Caution when working with ANY solvent.
Back when I worked for Pratt Whitney on jet and rocket engines
we had steam heated vapor degreassers filled with
trichlorotriflouroethylene. One night in, oh, December '69, I was lowering some
stator cases into the vat and the guy I was working with dipped a pail into the
vapors and filled it with condensed trich. He raised it and stuck his head down
and inhaled the stuff. He said it was the best way to get rid of a cold.
By the end of January he was dead of liver failure.
Yes, I know this is an extreme example, but there it is.
We also had one fellow slip and fall into the degreasser. His scream stopped long
before he hit the bottom. Sorry to be so maudlin. Bad memories don't go away easilly.
Peace and Love and Safety, Wayne.