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Author Topic: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type  (Read 44742 times)

kltrider

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2007, 06:25:45 AM »
Okiezeke:
I would recommend you remove the small cast iron stands on the bottom of this engine.
I didn't notice them on earlier pictures. My kubotas all came with them installed, but were
soon broken by stress and vibration. Sorry to throw water on your campfire like this, but
better now than while you are running.
Athe luck in the world, Wayne.

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2007, 05:29:07 PM »
Zeke, It is mounted on a frame with rubber isolators, I don't even have the frame bolted down,  It is about 2 ft in off the ground  ( out of flood zone) sitting on some stacked concrete blocks and a pair of 6 x 8 railroad timbers,   I will try to get some pictures uploaded so you can see my setup and also the 6/1 lister which runs in tandem with a 10 hp single phase motor as a generator synced to the ST15.

By the way, I am reading a consistant 27- 29 amps from the Lister 6/1  setup at 250 volts which acccording to my math is about 6750 watts and running with a clear exhaust.  I think the Lister's are grossly underrated. Mine is a Metro brand.




Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

SCOTT

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2007, 05:43:49 PM »
Biloxibad

Can you explain how you are reading 27-29A @250v?  The 6700 watt figure seems very high, the best I was able to achieve was about 3700 on my 6/1 before smoke was obvious.  Did you make any modifications to the engine?

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2007, 06:12:51 PM »
It is just as you see in the pictures,, the only real difference is that I am using a Baldor 230 V 10 HP single phase motor instead of a generator at slightly above 1800 RPM with the secondary circuit reversed and the starting caps taken off line.   It is excited by either an invertor when running alone or by the ST15 powered by the changfa clone.

The label on the motor says it is rated at 39 amps but I am able to run it up to 32- 33 without any serious heating, here is the link to the motor page on Baldor site. http://www.baldor.com/products/detail.asp?1=1&catalog=L1512T&product=AC+Motors&family=General+Purpose%7Cvw%5FACMotors%5FGeneralPurpose&winding=37WGW577&rating=40C+AMB%2DCONT

The drive system is a Utterpower serpentine belt pulley with a 6v belt, I am running #2 diesel offroad currently.

The muffler is a generic 2" inlet and outlet. Wife will probably do laudry this weekend, (my cue to start up the lister) I will get some shots of amps, voltages etc to post. since I got my camera working.

I havent run a fuel consumption lately , engine now has about 150 hrs on it,  but when Running I fill the built in 2.5 gallon tank and let 'er run for about 7- 8 hrs without worry.. I plan to do some calibrated tests of current vs fuel this weekend.

Steve
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2007, 09:25:49 PM »


This is from the Metro 6/1 mentioned in the post above. 33.1A x 253V =8374.3 watts Hz =59.9
Just a touch of grey smoke.  Has been under this load for about 2 hours.


Steve
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

SCOTT

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2007, 11:53:10 PM »
Steve
I see the numbers in the picture, I do not dispute the readings, but they do not make sense.  The wattage is way above what a 6/1 should be able to produce, also assuming NO loss in your motor (which can’t be the case) the motor should be able to produce just under 7.5kw at an RPM of 1875.  rated 1725rpm -1800=75 rpm slip 1800+75 =1875 this is the rpm that should yield the maximum output. 

What are you using for the load in this situation?  I believe what you are seeing is the load being powered by both the Baldor motor and your 15kw head or inverter, whichever you are using for excitation.  I am not trying to pick on you or be argumentative but 1+1 has to equal 2 and in this case it equals 5.  Maybe one of the electricians in the group could help describe how the numbers come out as they do.

If infact you are able to produce 8+kw with a 6/1 I will be very happy because I had a huge 10hp single phase motor made by the company that made my gen heads, that is still in the crate in my garage.  I am in the process of net metering and would love to be able to push 8kw back onto the grid using my induction motor.

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

rcavictim

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 12:51:54 AM »
Very nice clear pictures and nice portable measuring instruments!  However, you do not know the phase angle between the voltage and the current.  If you can buy or borrow a watt meter that is what you need here. The wattmeter takes power factor (phase angle differences) into account automatically as the way it works to give a true power reading in watts.  I agree with the others, no way the 6/1 is making that much electrical power.  If you cannot get a wattmeter, hook up incandescent light bulbs or resistance heaters as a dummy load and when you have 120 VAC applied across them you will know that they are indeed operating at their nameplate wattage.  Add up all the nameplate wattages to see how much real power you are making.  I seem to recall that induction generators have crappy power factor.  I have not actually played with them yet to have hands on knowledge.  Ask the hand, the hand doesn`t have an answer.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

TerryM

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 03:28:14 AM »
Since Biloxibad lives in the SE US, I presume that his 250 volt generator output is actually split into two 125 volt circuits with a common return.  With one ammeter, he has to be measuring one of the two hot legs, so the only thing that can be concluded is that the generator is powering a load of 125 V RMS x 29 amps = 3.625 KVA on one of the two 125 volt circuits.  Depending upon how much of that load is inductive (e.g. AC motor), the power factor could be 0.8 - 0.9 which would make the real component of the load on that leg 2.9 KW - 3.26 KW.

Since the current on the other hot leg is not being metered, there is no way to determine the total load on the generator.  My suspicion is that Biloxibad is running his AC unit on one leg and a bunch of lights on the other such that there is a fair amount of imbalance.  This would explain the seemingly extraordinary power output  from a 6 HP engine.

Biloxibad, if you're interested in accurately determining the output power of your generator, you have to put a fairly steady load on both circuits and measure the current draw in both hot legs.  Multiply each current times the voltage measured from the corresponding hot side to neutral and sum the values.  For example, assume you measured the following voltages and currents:

Hot side 1 to neutral = 120 volts
Hot side 1 current = 30 amps

Hot side 2 to neutral = 125 volts
Hot side 2 current = 10 amps

For simplicity assume that the loads are purely resistive so the PF is unity.

120 x 30 = 3600 watts
125 x 10 = 1250 watts
                 ========
                 4850 watts

Terry


Stan

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2007, 04:57:56 AM »
And, I don't see the 1 ton of concrete under that 6/1.  Watch out or the concrete police are going to be knocking at your door.   ;)
Stan

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2007, 03:57:22 PM »
The motor has only 2 leads coming out , no ground at all.   It is wired into the bus via a 40 amp dual braker (2-40)  Each leg measures exactly the same as it is producing only 250V.  I wont be able to isolate it for any wattage checks as it is excited by the house grid.  I do have an electric meter I can put on it, It looks like a regular one on a power pole and see what the current flow running trough it is over time.. will that give a reading??

Steve
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2007, 04:02:04 PM »
I forgot to mention that the voltage in the panel is 126 from each leg to ground..
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

TerryM

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2007, 04:18:19 AM »
Steve - Thanks for the update, but now I'm really puzzled.  Let's put aside the original issue of an abnormally high output power from the Lister and discuss what appears to be a safety issue.  I'm going to try to do some text-based schematics to illustrate the important points. 

Standard wiring for a house has a 240 VAC feed coming from the pole or underground transformer in the form of two 120 volt circuits with a common neutral (sometimes referred to as a " return") running 180 degrees out of phase with one another.  The 180 degree phase relationship is what causes the hot-to-hot line voltage to be 240 VAC instead of zero.   In your house, you have 240 VAC appliances (dryer, stove, hot water heater) and 120 VAC appliances (TV, computer, refrigerator, etc.).  The 240 VAC loads are connected across the two hot lines "phase to phase" while the 120 VAC loads are connected from one phase to neutral - effectively ground.  Like this:


   Hot-1     >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------      <---
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
                     120 VAC             120 v applicances                                         |
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
   Neutral   >---------------------------------------------------------                              240 VAC Appliances
                          |                 |              |            |                                      |
                     120 VAC             120 v applicances                                          |
                         |                 |              |            |                                       |
   Hot-2     >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     <---

One of the features of this configuration is that regardless of the current drawn by the 120 Volt appliances, they
only see 120 VAC (subject to minor fluctuations in the input power).  Now lets look at your wiring configuration:

 Hot-1     >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------      <---
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
                     ??? VAC             120 v applicances                                          |
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
                         |                 |              |            |                              240 VAC Appliances
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
                     ??? VAC             120 v applicances                                          |
                         |                 |              |            |                                      |
   Hot-2     >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     <---


The 120 volt applicances are now connected in a series configuration and the voltage drop across each one is dependant upon
the load that each one draws.  In other words, if you had a light load in series with a heavy load, the voltage drop would become
unbalanced.  For instance, you could see 150 VAC across one of the appliances and 90 VAC across the other.  This is bad electrical
karma.

If the wiring from the generator is as you believe it to be (i.e. no neutral), you have a very hazardous condition with the potential to subject motors, lights, computers, TVs, etc to voltages well outside their design specs .  I'm surprised you haven't seen flickering lights, refrigerator motors groaning as they start and other anomalous conditions.  My advice to you is to put the generator testing with your house on hold until you can get a gen head with a neutral for 120/240 VAC operation. 

Terry



okiezeke

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2007, 09:23:49 AM »
 Wayne, jumping back to your comment on the add-on stands ,
Thanks, I had identified the stands as "looking weak"  Mine are stamped/welded sheet steel, not cast.  I'll probably remove them and weld a base for the engine from heavy stock.  With what the rig weighs now, what's another hundred pounds?.
Zeke
Changfa type 25hp with 15kw ST head
Lovson 20-2 in blueprinting/rebuild
International TD-15 B  1962 dozer
Changfa 8 hp., 280 A battery charger

kltrider

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2007, 06:08:31 AM »
okiezeke:
I mention the stands only because of a significant failure I was "involved" with. One of the first Kubota / generator sets I put together was for a pilot over at Chiefland.
He was using the jenny and battery combined system to start his F-86. The plane did what we call a "Hung Start" where the engine lit off, but wouldn't accelerate to normal idle.
He chopped fuel and motored the jet twice for 3 minutes each time to cool it, then was going to make another start attempt. His crew cheif decided that they needed more power so he upped the governor settings. The overspeed on the generator caused a shaft bushing to bind up due to heat and the resultant torque requirement was too much and snapped the overworked little stands. Next ting you know, here goes this Kubota, walking sideways off the mount frame. Fortunately, they got a good start and by the time the airplane returned from a 2 week trip, I managed to fix the mounts and re-bush the generator. That was also the last time I built a start cart using a noncoupled drive, where the generator and prime-mover (diesel) aren't solidly mated.
Just one of those things that makes you go "Hmmmm."
Much good fortune to you and yours, Wayne.

Biloxibad

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Re: Weichai 1115, 25hp Changfa-type
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2007, 10:45:06 PM »
Terry, Thanks for the schemes, You are making the asumption that I am using the lower schematic, which is not true, I am feeding your schematic ( the top one)  with the 240v to the panel and have the panel grounded, and the primary generator grounded creating the 125 V circuits..

You do realize that the 10 HP 230V motor doesn't require a "ground" to run, just a  couple of 125V legs 180 degrees out of phase..

That is the way it is wired up as a generator also, 

No problem.
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750