Info on ST1 or LT1, please

[virg]

I am new here. I am looking to acquire my first diesel genset this summer.
My greatest concern is not bothering the neighbors.
I would also like the best fuel efficiency possible.
I figure on about 5kw to get me by.
How does the ST or LT compare to the CS in these regards?

[listerdiesel]

Both these engines are high-revving compared with the CS engines, and being air-cooled they tend to spread more audible frequencies around. The metal casings also seem to amplify the noise in some situations.

If you can silence the exhaust, which is pretty low frequency anyway, the CS is going to be mechanically much quieter for the same output.

I'll put a posting up under "Original CS Engines" tab re the larger silencers that Lister used.

Peter

[virg]

Thanks for your reply. I'll look for your posting.
How about fuel efficiency? And are the ST or LT suitable for burning wvo?
How about vibration, compared to CS?
Sorry about all these questions, I'm a rookie, and I'll have a thousand more, such as:
Are Allmand genheads good quality?
And how can I put a picture up? Some one mailed me a picture of a motor he's selling, and maybe someone can ID it.

[virg]

Let's see if this works...

EUREKA!This is FUN!Back to business. What can be said about this engine/head?

[DaveW]

That looks like a ST2, two cylinder aircooled.  It would be 14.6 HP at 1800 RPM.  AT that speed, with the pepper pot muffler it will be noisy, a good aftermarket muffler will help a lot.  But even after quieting down the exhaust it will still be fairly loud, depends on how close your neighbors are.  The Allmand head I have has run for years with no trouble, just don't overload it.  And remember, you won't have the mass of the huge flywheels on a CS to pull you through a load surge, so if it is a five KW head then stay at 5 KW or below.  All in all, that is a good backup system, but as a high speed aircooled engine I wouldn't consider it a 24/7 runner.  I have never run one on anything other than store bought diesel, so I couldn't say as to WVO.

[virg]

Thanks for your reply.
I do have in mind a CS for "day to day" operation.
I'm considering this for supplemental power, or perhaps just acquire the head, who knows?
Supposedly, it's a 15kw head tied to the motor.
Regarding this motor, assuming it runs and generates well, what would be considered "fair market value", in it's apparent outward condition? The head alone?
Would it make a good "first engine", or should I just save my money for the CS?
As to soundproofing mechanical noise, what might it take? (I had already been considering surrounding my genset with 4-inch concrete, using those foam block building forms. Alternate suggestions?)
Any takers on WVO, fuel efficiency, or vibration comparing ST to CS?

Peter, you said

the CS is going to be mechanically much quieter for the same output

Does this also refer to efficiency (input), or noise alone.

More stupid questions to come( I have been spending as much time as possible reading up on your forum, hard when you work 6-12's). My wife's gonna kill me, and I'm late for work!

I might need to move fast on one of those motors, that's all.

[dieselgman]

I have a lot of customers running ST2 engines of this type 24/7. They are doing quite a bit of maintenance on them though and usually running mutliple machines in order to accomplish this efficiently. Yes the mechanical noise level on this engine is quite loud but all you need for dampening those frequencies is a good insulated shed for the old girl. There are thousands of this model around the country and especially a lot of them in Alaska where I do a lot of work. They are easy to get parts for and fairly bulletproof if they are taken care of properly. Usual asking price range for a working set like the one pictured would be $1000 to $3000 in Alaska. That head does not appear to be large enough to have a 15kW rating and if it is, it probably is not original to the setup with the ST.

Hope this helps a bit.

Gary
diesel-electric.us

[virg]

Gary, every little bit helps, thanx. (You're right, plaque on genhead reads "3" kva.)
Also, to respond to Dave's post, my neighbors are close, reeeal close. I'm in Chicago.

Usual asking price range for a working set like the one pictured would be $1000 to $3000 in Alaska.

If I could acquire it for, let's say, $500 or less, do you think it would be something to jump on, perhaps even only as an investment opportunity?

I had done a search here, "Lister LT", to try to help me get the info I desire, and nothing came of it, really (Mebbe I done somthin rong).
So, my stupid questions that remain, still remain. I will gladly accept guesses and hunches and "he said"s as answers. Put in your two cents. I dare you.

So, here goes: Fuel efficiency, WVO, vibration, effective soundproofing materials, "good first motor"?    (ST/LT vs. CS)

[fordfun]

Virg,
      I have two of these setups sitting in my shop. Allmand brothers of Holdredge, NE. built them for many years. They produced a portable light plant and also made gen setups with them. The ones that I have have an ST2 Lister with a 4.8 KVA genset. They also made a newer version with a TS2 with a larger 6 KVA genset. While the ST2 runs at a higher rpm than the CS, it is still a very rugged motor (1800 rpm still isnt that fast, comparatively speaking). We used them for many years on construction sites and they suffered alot of abuse, chuggin right along unless they were run out of oil.
      The Allmand Bros. Gen head is a permanent magnet design. No regulator whatsoever. The permanent magnets in the rotor can weaken, resullting in lower voltage. I would check the voltage, and frequency to insure that the rpm hasnt been bumped up to compensate. On a side note, the gen head only has an outboard bearing and would be difficult to mate up with a different engine. If the ST2 runs well, I wouldnt see any reason to change that anyhow. It may not be a CS, but you can be sure its better built than any of the junk coming in from India. Ive used one several times during the winter when icestorms have knocked out the power. 

                                                                                                        Good Luck , Gary

[dieselgman]

Regarding the Lister ST;

Fuel Efficiency; 0.405 lb/bhp/hr at full load at 1800 rpm. We often will use a gallons per hour figure for gensets but the 0.405 will give a better yardstick for your question about efficiency.

WVO; ST engines use a direct injection, very simple system that will accept a variety of fuels as long as you can deliver it in the right viscosity for the tiny injector nozzle holes. If your fuel has been converted to "biodiesel" then no problem at all. There is ample information on use of this fuel type elsewhere on this forum and on the web. As far as carbon buildup and the like, I have seen many problems with the direct injected Listers and incomplete combustion regardless of fuel type. Usually these problems come about when the engine is not being worked hard enough to keep it "hot". Our recommendation on gensets is to provide for using at least 75% of the load capacity all of the time the engine is run (after initial warm-up period).

Vibration; The ST style engine with 2 cylinders and its short stroke (running 1800 rpm) has no problem with vibration. They are stable and smooth when running properly. I have seen them run fine without any mounting but we usually put them on a small steel skid to help stabilize during start-up and moving operations. I have seen them often mounted to small trailers as well. Some customers like to set them on a tire for vibration dampening.

First Motor; The ST is easy to work on in comparison with other small diesels, there are a number of details to learn as with any machine, but once mastered, all is quite simple. As stated earlier, there are a large number of these engines in operation and for good reason. They are solid and dependable, easy to work on and get parts for, provide good service for your time and money invested. The ST has a fully enclosed flywheel for safety and it's connected devices are usually close-coupled so no exposed moving parts to deal with as far as safety is concerned. SAE adapters are readily available so it can mate easily with all sorts of equipment.

On the Almand generator head- I have seen these often on old light-plant towers. They work fine when operational but are not closely regulated for output and not cost effective to repair. I prefer other types if given a choice in the matter.

Hope this helps out,

Gary
diesel-electric.us

[dieselgman]

Since we have not said much about the Lister LT in response to virg's query I will note here a few points;

The LT is a newer design and a much smaller engine. The ST is a very robust design in comparison. We usually see the LT running small DC alternators for construction and highway sign-boards. This application (battery charging) is well suited to the LT but AC power generation would be quite limited on the LT models. If a person only had to charge a battery bank then the LT would be a nice choice because it is small and light and does not use much fuel in comparison with the larger engine types.

If you want the real specific data for this model and parts information etc.. You may email me directly. We really don't see much demand for this model Lister though.

Gary
diesel-electric.us

[DaveW]

One thing to keep in the back of your mind....... Quieting down an aircooled engine with a good insulation layer in a small out building is quite doable, BUT you have to remember that depending on location and ambient temperature a good insulation factor may also block the recirculating air needed to cool the engine.  A fan on a thermostat high up in the peak of the roof is really good insurance and if baffled properly won't let the noise leak out but will change the air often enough.  Please don't ask how I know this here in south Texas.   

[virg]

Speaking of the LT: How's this motor look?


Re: Replies.
Now daisch what Im talkin' about. Thanks, G-Man, Thanks, Gary.

Gary(1), You seem to have a lot of good things to say about this genset, and I appreciate the hints about checking voltage and frequency. All in all a straightforward critique.

Gary(G-Man),

I prefer other types if given a choice in the matter.

If Allmand head proves to be bad, can it be replaced with another type in the same direct-couple configuration? (You seem to imply so. But with what Gary(1) said about outboard bearings and all, I thought I would double-check.)
You also have much good praise for ST, I'll translate this to "as good a choice as any for a beginner's first engine". Am I wrong in reading this into it?

The ST style engine with 2 cylinders and its short stroke (running 1800 rpm) has no problem with vibration.

So, I won't be needing a 2-ton concrete base laid like some have done for their CS? How about ST 1 cylinder? (Dude has one of those, too).

75% of the load capacity all of the time the engine is run

Let's see...(I hope I don't have to take my socks off)...75% of 14.6 hp@1800rpm is what? 11hp? If a 6/1 makes 3kw ongoing (and I'm not sure what the actual hp is at that spec.), then I figger 5.5 kw ongoing. Have I got it right so far? So, that 3kva Allmand head pictured, even with the dreaded PowerFactor thrown in, is vastly underrated, no?

Fuel Efficiency; 0.405 lb/bhp/hr at full load at 1800 rpm.

Now the socks are coming off!
0.405 x 14.6 = 5.9 lb/hr@7.3kwh (feets, don't fail me now) = .8lb/kw or about 0.1 gallon per kw.

Could it be, that these are better numbers than the almighty CS?

[virg]

Thanks, Dave.
I will keep it in the back of my mind what you said, however, couldn't the inflow of combustion air to the shed to replace the outflow of exhaust air be sufficient enough?
Dad moved here from Brownsville...sez it was too dang HOT!
What  soundproofing materials would you use? Are fiberglass and plywood effective enough? How about my idea to use those "styro-forms"? Any other suggestions?

[virg]

OOOPS!
Let's see now....