Making a New Lister

[Tom]

I had a '33 DeSoto rumble seat coupe that had the back 3 pistons and lifter adjusters removed from the 6 cylinder engine. I'd guess this was done to save gas during the war. I never did hear it run, but I bet it sounded interesting. The crank throws had band clamps over the oil holes.

[mobile_bob]

the only thing that would concern me about removeing 4 cylinders from an 855 cummins is the balance issues
you think lister parts are heavy!

removeing these components and haveing a counterweighted crank might make for a real vibratory problem
and the flywheel of an 855 whether dish or flat in nowhere near as heavy as a listeroid flywheel let alone two of them

might be an interesting project if one had one laying around,, just to see how it would do at around 600rpm or so
might not shake too bad

another concern is harmonics breaking the crankshaft, some of the earlier cummins (small cam) had a propensity to break cranks
as they were, i cannot imagine that running on two cylinders in an odd fire arrangment would do anything but aggravate the situation.

but interesting for sure

bob g

[snail]

Ok, so it's a bit over the top, but have a look at

http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/rrv2.htm

I'm sure someone(in Oz) fabricated a hemi block from steel plate a few years ago.It was still on the strip in the 90's cos it was completely idistructible. God knows what it wieghed though

Brian

[evilpsych]

After my original post about lister machine drawings a few months ago, I pretty much tossed the idea.

All this talk about automotive diesel off-the shelf components for a new block..

Dumb question, how difficult would it be to just take an existing diesel engine - say a Cummins 4BT, and MAKE it run at slower speeds such as the listers?? It would be far easier to deck that block, get special pistons, etc, and have large-mass flywheels made for it than start from scratch on a block. Since for the most part it's a manual diesel, no expensive sensors or injectors to clog or replace, in fact i bet you could get injectors that would pretty much flow any fuel-stock. I wonder what the engine life would be on that setup.

[theboss]

Why not import custom spec blocks and head from India and source everything else locally??

Why not come up with  a different design slow speed diesel using off the shelf parts. Well some engineering concerns expressed here true but in "Indian engineering" they don't think that deep about stress levels and shearing capability. They simply toughen it up until it looks good enough to withstand. This is how engineering goes in third world. Beef it up so it wont break 

Anyone really thinks all these factories churning out Lister clones even consulted a computer in manufacturing??

There are some heavy duty V-4 diesels available not sure what brand it was but seems a good candidate for a hack-job slow speed diesel. It had separate right and left cylinder block bolted to crank case and push rod driven valves. One simply needs to unbolt half of the engine, mount heavy fly wheels and get ready to go. Off course re balancing crank and cam may be required.

[listeroidsusa1]

I wouldn't discount the "Indian Engineeering" too quickly. I know a lot of the manufacturers personally and wonder if universities like MIT, Cornell, Stanford, and others mean anything?  Most of these guys got their engineering degrees here in the States. The problem isn't the head honchos, but the common laborers who haven't had the benefit of a formal education. Most of the people I've worked with in India are actually pretty sharp. There, like here, the "system" prevails however. It is a false concept that the US is still top dog in the manufacturing world, India and China are passing us on the way up, especially in education.

[theboss]

Well you are working with the top 10% elite of technical world in India. And no doubt India and China in education are beating everyone to their heels!!

Their logic is simple. Do not reinvent the wheels, simply reprint low cost versions of western education material.

[listeroidsusa1]

As an example, i taught Introduction to Engineering at our local college. I had to have an approved textbook for the class. My copy here was $145 in hardback. I looked on the web trying to save some money. McGraw-Hill had released the exact same textbook in India in paperback for $7.50. I bought one and read it. It was the same release and edition word for word with the edition the Dean gave me to teach out of!. I had my class buy theirs online for the $7.50. The college bookstore DIDN'T like that!

Mike

[theboss]

well weakness of capitalism are loss of one is profit for another. Education should be free of politics and business.

[panaceabeachbum]

apologies for reviving the dead

Somewhere I have a set of plans for an engine designed to burn wmo , the engine uses a cylinder rod and piston assembly from a volvo truck . I cannot remember what it uses for a head .

The crank is fabricated , individual machined pins and disk welded together. the same procedure used for modern 2 stroke and high rpm motorcycle cranks.

The crankcase is fabricated from steel plate welded together , I cant remember what the flywheels are from but it uses a pair of cast iron truck flywheels .

I dont know if many/any of them have ever been built, I bought the plans from an add in mother earth news about 20 years ago , I seem to remeber it was rated for aprox 5 hp at 1500 rpm .

It really wouldnt be hard to build an engine , even a listeroid with a fabricated steel crankcase and some of the repair parts avail, the crank shaft beig the hardest part .

On a side note here is a link to a 5 cyl radial engine that a few of us are building to power homebuilt aircraft that uses VW cyls and pistons , I am about half way done with mine . One of the fellows on the group has a nice little single cyl stationery engine he has built using the same head and cyl assembly   here is the group , lots of talented fellows there , lots of neat pics  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HCIRadialbuilder/?yguid=325559734

[snail]

Pan,
     You've stirred up something I have been thinking about for a while. Time for a bit of "bench racing"
   Just suppose (hypothetically ) that a bloke had sold most of his collection of stationary engines and had a bunch of leftovers including most of a 5HP HVID/Brons engine sitting in the corner.
   If we assumed that most of the fuel system is missing and that it was , say a common (not very valuable) engine such a s a McDonald (Australian made copy of a St Mary's) so the owner wouldn't mind doing a bit of conversion work.
   The next assumption is that the owner had access to some(other peoples ) very good automotive and general engineering facilities (and knowledge)
   So after all of those assumptions, the question is : what would be the best system for fueling (and igniting) a straight WMO engine?
   Options would seem to include the hot bulb, HVID/ Brons system, Lister style injection or some combination, possibly including a spark to get more accurate timing.
   Time for all of those crazy ideas to come out of the woodwork.

The one big assumption is that the bloke in question had the time and energy, on top of running a one man business and rebuilding an old Jag.

Any ideas anyone?

Cheers,

Brian

[compig]

Hmmm , having known guys who do model engineering start projects that consume 10 or more years of their life and are still always 'almost' there I would say life is too short ! The likelihood is that a full size, from scratch engine project would never be finished. If someone wants a larger medium speed diesel they should find an old one , put it to use and use the time saved for watching it work while they play !

[panaceabeachbum]

true for 99.9999 of the folks out there that would be the simplest and most practical approach, just buy a running engine.

Then there are a few of us that have built a number of running internal engines from barstock and or castings that dont see the project as anything more than another project that could be completed in just a couple of months of off time  . Then figure a few of us might have 4 axis cnc milling machines big enough  to machine a decent size 12cyl airplane engine block from almost every angle in one set up  along with a shop full of newish automotive machine tools and the project begins to look rather routine.  We just added a new cnc crank lathe capable of turning cranks up to 7 feet in length with a throw of other 1 foot.

Mind you I am not talking about re-inventing the wheel , my plan is to purchase one of the fairly complete listeroid repair kits and simply fabricate and machine a steel crankcase to house the indian parts using the same geometry as the lister .  Infact this is the reason i was asking for lister dimensioned drawings a while back , with the intent of fabricating the bottom end of the engine.

I have everything in house to make this project a reality including making the crankshaft , all I need are the basic dimensions for the crankcase and related layout of all the other parts . As a machine shop owner I am always looking for the next project for resale , Looking at the lister replacement parts kits I see a possible market for domesticly manufactured "replacement" crankcases , crank shafts and flywheels to work with these parts. Would it be a commercial success, probably not but I have very low overhead and a fairly large product line so running a batch of 20 , making welding jigs etc, putting them in the wharehouse and then trickling out 1 or 2 a year wouldnt be a problem .  I have a pattern maker in house and setting up to cast flywheels is not a big deal .  casting flywheel for the project and fabricating a steel crank along with a fabricated crankcase also gives the ability to incorporate counterweights and balance (as well as a thumper can be) the engine .

This desire to work up a US made bottom end for the avail indian parts is a large portion of my reasoning for wanting a lister , that and I am obbsesd with IC engines .   Anyone within driving distance of me have a lister or listeroid 6/1 apart I can spend a day or so making cad drawings of ?  I am in Nth Florida

[compig]

wonderful to have those facilites , I'm deeply envious !  Looking forward to the end result !

[panaceabeachbum]

I am not saying I will get any further than the planning stages or even if i tackile it that it will ever get finished , I have been bulding the radial in my link above for almost 5 years with no completion date in sight  , but right now I have the fever to make it happen , just need access to the bottom half of a dis-assembled 6/1 before I loose intrest .

Dont be envious , the tools are neat but the lack of free time due to paying for all of it makes me long for a shack on the beach and a keg of beer