Making a New Lister

[bluwater]

Here's a think for you.

If a person had a healthy budget, are there designs available to build very large listers? Here locally we have foundries that make immense parts. Or would one have to hire an engineer to design one?

SST

[DaveW]

   Bluwater -
      The minutiae required to properly replicate an existing design would boggle the mind, to scale up something would be like boggle squared or cubed.  I would think that it would take a team of engineers with many different backgrounds to do it well.  A "healthy budget" would be an understatement.  Just my opinion, of course YMMV.
     The stresses and pressures on each part would have to be understood completely before the first casting was made, unless a long period of experimenting was done, and after it all was finished could it be made to comply with whatever emissions standards would apply?  With today's EPA mindset, I would look long and hard at standards first, before committing any coin at all.

[dkwflight]

Hi
I've thought along those lines myself. You need access to some really large machines to do the work on the base casting, ETC.
THe base could be welded up and then machined
A one off engine would be experimental and you can do what evere you want.
Dennis

[Doug]

If I've learned anything form my Indian experience its that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to build a roid. You just need to build a cupula foundry, get some old machine tools and buy what you can't produce...

Doug

[mobile_bob]

interesting

the most difficult part might be the specifications of the crankshaft

all other parts could be borrowed from existing engines, i would  think

such as cummins 855 with there 5.5 inch bore, you have piston, rings, wristpin, and induction hardened liner

 the conrod, and of course brgs

or a k series with its 6" bore,, with all the same parts available

with a welded steel crankcase, might be a fun project,,, and screw the epa

i wouldnt know why you couldnt adapt the mico bosch fuel system

with the availability of laser cut steel, water jets etc,, the need for machining is decreased

with a k series cummins they have individual heads, so the cummins head could be used, as well as the
injection system,,  cut down a camshaft, maybe a monster twin!

makes you wonder what parts could be brought together to build a large bore, long stroke thumper
with many parts that already are in existance,,

they build locomotive engine with welded steel crankcases,, it would seem possible to do a smaller engine as well.

would be a noble project, with good drawings could be replicated with a parts list.

"things that make you go hmmmm"

bob g

[Stan]

Guys...here's a Witte 12 hp mod CD diesel with generator and electric start.  Most if not all of the parts are still available from Arrow (nee witte) engines.  This is a horizontal diesel engine, designed for electrical generation.  700 rpm. They come in higher hp ratings also.   They are available from engine auctions in the USA.  There's no need to "reinvent the flywheel".    Unless you are into reinventing, that is.
Stan

[Doug]

Hey Bob You just made a fantistic sugestion!!!!

Cummins head and guts.....
Now we just need a block, crank case and cam. You know the Petteroid crank and cam isn't all that bad. If we moved up to the 125 mm stroke crank in a Petter block ( properly machined of course ) and use as many Cummins parts as possible you could build a bitchin thumper or twin.

Doug

[cujet]

I have always thought that a 3 cylinder Lister CS would be the way to go. Use the biggest Indian pistons and cylinders. The bottom end would be the difficult part.

The vibrational issues would mostly disappear, as 3 cylinder diesel engines fire evenly. This would also provide much smoother electrical power.

Chris

[Doug]

A twin means you have twice as many things to go wrong a triple doesn't help that problem....

I realy big thumper, with a counter weighted crank, ballance shaft maybe and 200 pounds of single fly wheel mounted with a taper lock bushing. Add a good oiling system and maybe even dare I saw it hydraulic lifters, hardened steel valve seats and valve rotors, possitive valve seals. Good bearings and carriers and alignment pins in all the right places so things can be machined and bored in all the right ways.

Simple robust and designed to be serviced, heavy and stationary for long life, common statndard parts where ever practical metric fasteners and studs for easy of replacement....

That's what India needs to build, but won't. No market for such a machine the world has passed this by in favour of small conainer friendly engines.

The Witte engine is nice too but its also a throw back, how long will Arrow continue to stock parts for engines they no longer build? I think its no accidient they took a Petteroid and made a natural gas engine from it rather than build it on a Witte platform they are going to orfan the Wittes soon....

Doug

[Stan]

 I don't know for sure Doug but I think the L series Arrow engines are a direct descendant of the Witte   http://www.arrowengine.com/lseries.htm
  they sure look like it!
Stan
Mind you, it is one h3ll of a big engine 

[MeanListerGreen]

Guys...here's a Witte 12 hp mod CD diesel with generator and electric start.  Most if not all of the parts are still available from Arrow (nee witte) engines.  This is a horizontal diesel engine, designed for electrical generation.  700 rpm. They come in higher hp ratings also.   They are available from engine auctions in the USA.  There's no need to "reinvent the flywheel".    Unless you are into reinventing, that is.
Stan

That's not a CD its a BD and I think you would be very hard pressed to find very many parts still available.  Some of the parts from Arrow gas engines will cross over but it is limited.

[Stan]

That'd make it what, 15 hp then?

My point was, it would probably be easier and faaaar cheaper to start with an engine such as a witte, or a FM Y, etc etc. and find parts that you could, then machining parts you couldn't find, than starting with a bunch of molten iron and casting everything from scratch 

Stan

Here's what Arrow says about obtaining witte parts.   http://www.arrowengine.com/parts.htm#WitteParts

[Doug]

Maybe I had it all wrong, but it looks as if Arrow is getting out of buidling diesels.

They certainly aren't interested in selling parts or engines in the emails I sent about the K series Petteroids

[Stan]

Well Doug, you've got more experience dealing with them than I have (which is 0) so I'll defer to you.  I only know about them from postings on smokstak. 

My point remains that there are alternatives to Listers out there without trying to build another home grown engine from scratch.  I see a couple of larger oil field engines every week advertised for sale on smokstak which I would love to be able to buy.  The Ajax is supposed to be a fantastic engine, smooth running and capable of running on just about any form of gas (as in natural, methane, propane etc) with very little wear.  They will take the most sulpherous forms of bio generated methane and run quite happily.  Most engines in the 10hp to 20 hp range are running around $1500 to $5000 bucks for a good running engine, less for "fixer uppers".

I don't know about your epa regs, haven't followed any of the threads on that but I'd imagine if you had a 65 year old engine it should qualify as some sort of antique, shouldn't it?

Lots of guys are making and supplying bushings, pistons, rings etc for a lot of these old engines, at least enough to make them reasonable to fix and maintain.

Stan

[Doug]

Stan they're not my EPA regs I'm in the nickel city....

I like the idea of a properly built old engine just as much as a new one.

I just can't seem to get used to looking at old horizontal engines but I like the fact that the Witte does still have suport.

I would prefer a Petteroid with guts out of something still in production here with metric bolts, not too much to ask for is it?

Doug