Author Topic: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake  (Read 101744 times)

shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2013, 07:14:30 PM »
Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the comments and interest. I'll be sure to take pics and document everything from start to finish. I will not fudge any numbers or cheat....whatever the results are, good or otherwise, is what will be posted up for all to see. I agree with Mike that modifying an old engine like this is more work than just buying a ready to run genset, but I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing this type of work. I feel like I could spend a year or two just doing little upgrades here and there and tweaking a little more power and efficiency out of it. I tend to gravitate towards engines which are big, strong, and simple so this one is right up my alley.

Regarding the head studs, I can't comment on the quality of Indian studs as I am no metallurgist, but the things are so damn massive that even with lower quality steel I would imagine the factory studs will suffice for 95% of purposes. You shouldn't have to worry about the threads. This is just based on what's on this Metro engine; your particular situation may vary. Due to the thickness of the crankcase, cylinder liner, rod, piston, head, studs, etc, major mechanical failure is something you simply are not gonna have to worry about. It reminds me of a Ford 2.3 engine which I have experience with turbocharging. Those are similar in being big cast iron lumps whose heads don't breathe so great but a turbo wakes them up big time and they'll take just about anything you can throw at it. The biggest areas of potential problems I can foresee would be poor quality machining (head or deck surface not flat; cylinder liner sticking up too high, etc) and EGTs if they get too high.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:19:16 PM by shiftless »

buickanddeere

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2013, 08:21:25 PM »
A two valve per cylinder pushrods natural aspirated diesel will run approx .25HP per cubic inch at 1800rpm.
The short cam timing required to ensure high volumetric efficiency at cranking speeds. Which maxes the compression pressure and heat to ignite fuel in a cranking engine.
   A run of the mill single cylinder natural aspirated diesel will run approx .40 -.45 lbs of fuel per HP per hour. Larger multi cylinder engines has less loss per cu". A modest turbo will improve efficiency some. Hard pressed to beat .375 lbs fuel per HP with any conventional mechanical injection diesel.
   Open cycle Rankin coal power plants and  gas turbines or reciprocating diesels with secondary boilers can squeeze 50% thermal efficiency. That 100,000HP turbo two stroke marine engine running at 102rpm comes to mind..

buickanddeere

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »
I've hogged out the massive lump from the intake port on my Kryslar PH1H clone . Used a milling machine and a drill bit that just cleared the valve seats. Port now has a conventional valve bowl . Then used the sand blasting booth to sand blast down the intake port to smooth off the rough edges.
   No flow bench before and after to verify cfm.
   Considering sending the followers and cam in to true them up but the old clunk is 't really worth it for a hobby put putter. Still won't make enough power to run a 10KW generator.
    Going to just use the stock PH1 piston and sleeve. Had a fantasy going for a while to $$$ bore the cylinder to take a PJ1H sleeve and piston.
   Did rebuild the pump and injector into a PJ version with an 8mm element.
    Have to weld head around coolant holes on deck. While sand blasting the rock hard minerals out of the coolant passages. I accidentally took off some head metal. :'(
   Engine still in pieces due to time, money and daughter's over due horse barn and pasture.

selmawp

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 03:59:03 AM »
Hi all,
Shiftless, you asked for some pictures on a ported lister head. And cujet was talking about air flow improvement.
These pictures show before and after of a head Tony ported.
Now, for a partial recap of an earlier blog entrie and how we achieved better fuel economy.
We are not engineers but we have experienced good results from the modifications we have done to our lister in the air flow department. Our measurements have been over long periods of time (months/years) keeping good records of fuel added and hours run using a hour meter.
In 2006 when the Lister arrived, the first thing we did was to tear down the head and cylinder and do the following improvements.
1. We port matched the intake and exhaust ports.
2. Machined the head for a thermostat.
3. Did a 3 angle valve job and shimmed the valve springs with a .060 spacer to increase the spring pressure.
4. Resurfaced the head.
5. Ground the lifters to make them true (as they were not square with the cam) and put a slight crown on them to cause them to spin while running.

For the 4 years following our fuel consumption was 4 hr/gal.
The average load was probably no higher than 2 kw.
We'd been running at 990rpm and probably run it about 500 hours per year.

Then in 2010 we removed the oil filled air cleaner and change it to a paper filter. We cut off the first 2 inches of the intake manifold and welded a pipe to accommodate a VW air filter.  This process caused the air intake manifold volume to be increased by slightly over 70% (from 1.3 “dia. to 1.70”dia.) This increased air flow caused the fuel consumption economy to increase a big 1.2hr/gal from 4hr/gal to 5.2hr/gal.


The next thing we did was to change the cooling system to a radiator (from my old tank system) to have a more consistent temperature in a shorter amount of start-up time. This helped to achieve 5.5hr/gal.

Lastly we changed the pulley ratio to lessen the running rpm from 990 to 770. This ultimately brought us to 5.7 hours per gallon and it has been consistent over the last three years.

Tom

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 06:41:41 PM »
Interesting, this article seems to confirm the "big gulp" theory stated previously in this thread. I wonder which VW the air filter is off of???
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 10:41:38 PM »
Thank you Selma, I'm glad you chimed in! I had found your thread a couple months ago and your story is definitely inspiring. I am glad (and not at all surprised) to hear you increased fuel economy so much through simple little mods. It's all about attention to detail.

Did you do any maximum load testing on your engine, and can you comment on what effect your improvements may have had in power output?

One thing that is interesting to me, is seeing the differences in "common beliefs" on various Internet forums. Human knowledge on various topics has evolved and morphed over the past ~15 years and grown considerably as various forums have been established, bringing together folks of all different sorts with wildly different opinions in some cases, and there has been a process of dissemination of all this knowledge. In the early years especially there were a lot of arguments, some pretty ugly, striking down certain long held beliefs in some cases, and the overall effect is people are becoming better educated and informed. That's why I'm a big fan of the Internet.

I see though that certain information, which is now becoming "common knowledge" on the better hot rodding forums, like how air flows and how a port should be shaped for best performance, has not quite spread everywhere yet. I see guys posting up pictures of their Listeroids with freaking 90* plumbing els for their intake and exhaust system, or these piece of shit oil bath oil cleaners, without a thought in the world as to why that may be bad and nobody even thinks to comment, while I'm just staring at it thinking WOW what a restriction! There seems to be a misconception that certain details don't matter or aren't important because it's a "slow speed" engine and that is simply not the case. The laws of physics are the same whether a motor runs at 650 RPM or 6500, and even at 650 it's a big motor and that's a lot of air pulses per second. One thing I have learned from hot rodding is that the tiniest of details do matter and will make a real difference in how an engine runs. A 5% improvement is still a 5% improvement whether your engine is 6 HP or 600 HP.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:46:56 PM by shiftless »

millman56

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2013, 11:01:16 PM »
Yesterday  using an original Lister 6-1 with a chocked rack  and powering a fixed electrical load, 1.5 psig boost, applied using an idustrial blower fan, sent the steady frequency of 47.3 hz,   up by 1 hz and back down again by this amount when removed, this was repeated many times over with the same result + or - 0.1 hz.    this would appear to reinforce the efficiency benefits of port work, in this case the inlet port only,  as the boost applied and the commensurate power increase without extra fuelling should represent the same net result of what occurs when the inlet tract flow is improved.  

PS this test was carried out after investigating the effects of water addition to the air charge regarding eficiency/.power gains, I will post the full test protocol,results and photos soon.

It will be interesting and relatively easy to find out what pressure boost gives the maximum power increase available on a fixed fuel amount, I  am thinking of my 180 cfm  tractair compressor ( ticking over of course )  piped to the inlet with a couple of tee branches connected, one for a gate valve to act as a dump valve/regulator  and the other for a 0-15 psi gauge.  

Mark.  

selmawp

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 12:02:46 AM »
Hi Tom, 73 bug only had a paper air filter, 74 and up where fuel injected and different again.

Hi shiftles, we never had the abilety to test load before and after,

mobile_bob

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2013, 03:40:38 AM »
if you guys will take note of selmawp's pictures for a moment

top pic, right port, upper half of inner, just under the seat area
do you guys see the little lip running around?

bottom pic, same position, it appears that this lip was removed

does anyone know what the lip is for?

anyone?

yes it causes restriction, but it has a very definite purpose, that being to impart a swirl and aid
in scavenging the spent exhaust gasses from the cylinder. the engine as a result is designed to run cleaner because of it.

everyone is getting all atwitter about opening up the ports, and this is in my opinion not only unneeded but likely undesirable.

case in point, take a look at "pulse port" technology.  read up on mach numbers and get an understanding of port velocity and its effects on what is going on in the cylinder.

also measure you lift, measure the area of valve opening, and factor in cam lift characteristics and you will find that the ports are already almost always larger than the available opening, especially after factoring in the cam profile effects...

opening up the ports in an effort to increase flow is not going to result in a higher flow rate, it will likely result in lower port velocity and if you remove port shelves or lips you might end up with a dirtier running engine... maybe dirtier with black smoke, maybe dirtier with higher NOx or ?

before you go hogging out a port you might want to take a hard look at simply replicating what the original listers used, it is extremely unlikely any guy in his garage with his die grinder is going to improve on listers efforts  and much more likely the result is going to be much less than expected at best and much worse than hoped for a definite reality.

there is no way anyone should be sitting on their  chair edge waiting for anecdotal evidence to a porting job while itching to grind up their cylinder head!  don't do it!  don't do anything until such time that real testing can be done to prove the validity of a claim... unless you just have money to spend or don't care much about what the results might be.

i got one hundred bucks that doing anything other than a port match and general cleanup results in anything more than a 1-2% increase in fuel economy is just not going to happen.  even getting a percent is going to be a monumental feat, and is going to take some serious efforts to document and commitment to doing what is needed to run the tests.

yes there might be one  nasty head out there that might have a more significant gain, but across the board gains?  not likely.

bob g

ps. do some reading on how many guys screw up their cylinder heads by doing the full on porting job,  far more heads are effectively ruined than are improved by guys in their garage.  read up on flow characteristics in a port and runner, and you will find things change when engine speeds drop below about 1200rpm (yes that can be lowered by smaller ports), however you must understand why these things work at higher rpms and post real gains. it is because of "pressure waves" which are setup at higher velocities but just don't happen at 650rpm.
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2013, 02:33:54 PM »
Bro I'm sorry but I just have to laugh at any suggestion that there are specific features in this intake port which are designed to do any specific thing. That lip is there on the port not because the Lister engineers or the Listeroid manufacturers are rocket scientists who put it there for a specific reason, but because the Indians' casting technology is stuck back in the stone age and that's just how it ended up. I have seen the same type of lip on automotive cylinder heads, due to the same reason (mass produced castings.) I have seen ports (late Ford 2.3 for instance) which have bumps and such specifically designed to introduce swirl; removing this stuff increases power at all RPMs with no ill effects in 100% of cases. Believe me, there were no flow tests or computer simulations conducted on this Listeroid port to design it, and nobody is in any danger of screwing up their port from porting it as long as they don't go hog wild and do crazy stuff to it. The original Lister stuff is not a blueprint to copy either considering it was designed back in the 1920s before a lot of this air flow information was even known.

Bottom line is, your theories are off base... which will be amply demonstrated when the before and after tests are conducted. I can probably get on that next week or so but in the mean time I first have to install a voltage reg on my gen head and do something about the governor so the RPMs and Hz won't drop so much under load.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 02:48:57 PM by shiftless »

Quinnf

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2013, 08:05:33 PM »
Shiftless, I don't mean to be argumentative, but you're thinking like a gas-engine Dude.   ;)

Your comments indicate that you expect  increased efficiency from the incremental changes you are considering making to the intake restriction.  On a diesel engine.  

Everyone here knows that in a gasoline engine more air means more fuel, and thus, more power,  because the fuel/air ratio is constant.  But a diesel takes a full breath every intake stroke regardless of whether it's idling or at full load.  One gets more power by injecting more fuel, up to a point.  That point is reached when more fuel is injected than can be completely burned by the available charge of air, and smoke forms.  That will only happen as you near maximum load.  

A 6/1, 8/1, etc., at the appx. 2 kw load Selmawp mentioned isn't near that point.  Providing more air under a partial load will only enrich the oxygen content of the exhaust stream; the extra available oxygen won't be burned.  What decreasing intake resistance will do is it will allow the engine to produce more power before it begins to smoke.  But you won't see any benefit at partial load.  In another example of gas-engine-thinking, Millman56 mistook the 1 Hz increase in alternator frequency to indicate that providing more air resulted in more power from the same amount of fuel.  What he was doing was simply reducing the pumping loss of the engine and slightly overpressurizing the cylinder.  Go to any show and you'll find old dudes running small 4-stroke engines on compressed air simply by pressurizing the intake manifold.  

What you propose has been talked about a few times, but I don't think anyone has ever done it and provided photos, and most important, reliable data.  

Consider what's involved:  

The 6/1 chugging along at 650 rpm takes a breath 325 times/minute.  Its cylinder volume, is 87 cu. in.  The airflow sucked into the cylinder on the intake stroke should be about 28,275 cu in/min, or about 16.4 cfm.

For the sake of comparison, at full roar, each cylinder of a 350 V-8 takes about 2500 breaths each minute at WOT with manifold vacuum near 0.  Its cylinder volume is about 44 cu in.  So it sucks about 110,000 cu in/min or about 64 cfm past each intake valve.  That's almost 4 times as much air as the diesel breathes.  

The intake valve on the V-8 is just under 2" diameter; about the same as that of the 'roid.  All things being equal, and setting aside the complexities of boundary vs. turbulent flow, Reynolds numbers, and boundary layer thickness, what we’re talking about with such a short intake runner boils down to flow resistance.  And the resistance to flow varies with the square of the area of the restriction.  

Since the flow rate past the intake valve of a 350 V-8 is about four times as great as that of the diesel, and resistance varies as the square of the flow rate, any improvement you make to the restriction in the intake of the V-8 will be 16 times that of the same operation in the diesel.   That’s why porting is always done in gasoline race engines, but is seldom mentioned with regard to diesels.  

I think any gain in power that you might make by cleaning up the intake would be small.  But it appears that you've already drawn your conclusions from your experiment which has yet to be performed.  

I'm not saying don't do it; these engines are wonderful tools for experimentation and learning.  I wish they still taught autoshop in my old high school; I would have donated one of my engines to the program.


Quinn
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 08:28:36 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Tom

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2013, 08:29:46 PM »
Very well put post Quinn. Based on you post though it seems that there are a couple of perhaps minor gains to be had. 1 is that cleaning up the ports may improve pumping efficiency with less energy lost to that. And 2 that a larger charge of air in the cylinder will increase effective compression ratio. BUT we'll see when the results are in.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Quinnf

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2013, 08:44:39 PM »
Aw, shucks.  I agree some small benefit might be attained, but I really doubt it would be measurable.  There's nothing wrong with doing the porting/polishing.  A good quality engine will already have smooth ports, whether it's gas or diesel.  It's just the gas-engine thinking that I wanted to point out, hopefully before Shiftless, or anyone else, gets their hopes too high.  Again, if this were a gas engine, by all means.  But a diesel?  Only if you really want to do it and won't be disappointed if it doesn't turn out.

q.
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2013, 01:18:57 AM »
Sorry Quinn....you're wrong...gas engine or diesel.

Which is easier to turn by hand: a Lister with no cylinder head installed, or the same engine with head installed and the exhaust and intake valves propped open? What if you took said Lister and hooked it up to a 5 horsepower electric motor, head on or off. Which engine do you think would spin faster?

With the head removed, obviously the motor will turn much easier with NO restriction on air entering or exiting the now totally open cylinder.

With head installed, during the intake stroke there is atmospheric pressure on bottom of the piston, and a partial vacuum on top of it due to the port and valve RESTRICTING AIRFLOW. The less restriction on the intake valve, the higher cylinder pressure will be, closer to atmospheric. Less force working against the piston as it moves down = lower pumping losses.

Same goes on the exhaust stroke except now you have high pressure exhaust attempting to exit through a restrictive port to the atmosphere, and crankshaft power being sapped to force it out.

The analogy you gave of a 350 V-8 is flawed. You didn't specify what RPMs said engine was turning but from you description of "full roar" I suppose you mean redline RPMs, 6000+? To have given such an example, you must clearly know nothing about porting. If you did, then you'd realize that port work benefits the motor at ALL speeds, part throttle and full, low RPMs and high RPMs. A typical full port job will show power gains on the dyno as low as 2000 RPM on any given motor; lower RPMs cannot be measured on most dynos. A steady state dyno with the engine running at a constant speed (i.e. PART throttle) will show horsepower gains at any speed. So how about plugging that 2000 RPM number into your little calculator and tell me now how the two engine flow rates compare? Go ahead--I'll wait.

I see a lot of scientific terms being thrown about (Reynolds numbers etc) but no indication from you that you actually know anything about or understand what they mean. You accuse me of having preconceived notions but last time I've checked, I'm speaking from real world experience, while you and Bob simply have theories based on scientific jargon combined with nonsense. How many cylinder heads have you personally ported, Quinn; gasoline or diesel? What was YOUR results the last time you tried the proposed experiment?

Speaking of Reynolds numbers, what effect do you suppose the factory port has on total airflow with as many twists and turns and restrictions as it has, thus introducing turbulence? (I guess I don't have to explain to you (the armchair engineer) what effect turbulence has on the flow rate?)

« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 01:28:36 AM by shiftless »

broncodriver99

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2013, 03:26:29 AM »
........
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 03:32:24 AM by broncodriver99 »