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Author Topic: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake  (Read 101742 times)

cujet

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2006, 12:51:33 PM »
Not sure about the casting and how much you have to play with. However I am sure every engine is different, so be careful.

I was not planning to install larger valves. My plan was to flow check the head at stock max valve lift, then start some common mods. I am sure the valve face can be cut for better flow, as well as the valve bowl. Small changes can make a huge difference when parts are so small and quality is so poor. From what I can see, the valve shape needs attention, the valve bowl, the area around the valve guide and the intake manifold/airfilter assy.

I am guessing that a 20-30% improvement on intake flow is within the reach of the stock sized components. Just a guess, so I could be way off base here. The numbers will tell the truth about this, and if I do this I will make sure to post the flow results.

Chris
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kyradawg

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2006, 06:45:01 AM »


Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:36:02 PM by kyradawg »

shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 08:30:27 PM »
Anyone got any pictures of a ported Lister cylinder head? I have ported many automotive cylinder heads and not sure how my Metro head compares to other Listeroids, but the port shape and rough edges are horrible; there has got to be considerable gains to be had in even minor bowl work, especially on the intake side.

dieselgman

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2013, 09:10:37 PM »
Smooth porting gains are also linked proportionally to rpms. I would think that you could make some minor efficiency gains by straightening and enlarging the ports... of course with a fixed low rpm engine that will most likely be quite limited.

Many (if not all) of the modern tier 4 certified engines use 4 valves per cylinder, so it is obvious that in a modern turbocharged engine, packing in more oxygen is clearly an efficiency booster.

I also know that in some cases even a rough inlet port has certain advantages in swirl and turbulence - mostly for high rpm gasoline and alcohol performance or racing engines though.

I would be very interested in hearing/seeing what power improvements can be had with a Listeroid and just how much of an efficiency improvement can achieved.

dieselgman
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shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 01:12:29 AM »
Bro I can tell ya, low speed or not, this motor stands to gain hugely from port work. Air has a lot of mass and even at low RPMs the port shape will make or break an engine. When I had the valves out today I got a good look in there and I can safely say, this motor has the worst ports I have ever seen, especially the intake port. The bowl area is horrible. The good news is there seems to be a lot of metal thickness all around (gotta love those Indian castings) so one can make a lot of improvement without worry of grinding into a water jacket. I would not be at all surprised to see an extra 3/4 - 1 HP from a full port job, and fuel efficiency should improve nicely as well. So that is definitely high up on the to do list here in the next month or so.


mobile_bob

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 03:07:15 AM »
something to think about

the castings might well have thin spots, and you might well grind into either a bolt passage or a water port

the shape of the port even though somewhat odd can and does have an effect over how the cylinder is scavenged... so unless you really understand what is needed there, porting can result in a much dirtier running engine.

in my opinion, porting should be limited to basic port matching between the head port and that of the manifold it mates with, and beyond that just clean up any loose flashing.

doing more so and the risk benefit ratio shift to the negative in my opinion.

also remember the runner lengths involved here, it is doubtful that you will realize any benefit to performance or efficiency because the intake and exhaust lengths are just too short to really work toward being able to appreciate any serious port work.

far more heads on any engine have been ruined and/or performance degraded by porting than have been improved by guys in a home shop.

fwiw, ymmv and all that
if you decide to proceed just want you to be forewarned
bob g
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millman56

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 07:32:41 AM »
I don`t know a thing about gas flowing an engine apart from that the racing boys do it with some success on high speed petrol engines. 
Some time ago I read (not sure where) that with a pulsating airflow such as an engine has on the intake, some gains can be had by tuning the length/diameter of an extended tube attached to the intake, this is supposed to use the ram effect of a moving body of air.   in fact an air filter on one of my N/A ex vehicle engines has a plenum chamber off the air ifilter pipe, this is I guess to store the pressure pulsations and return them out of phase to give some efficiency gain.   A similar mod was in vogue for 2 stroke bike engines during the 70s, but didn`t catch on.

Mark.

mobile_bob

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 11:29:15 PM »
runner length in theory work out to be something on the order of 14ft for the exhaust, and at that length friction causes another problem

intake lengths will be very long as well.

we covered the ground years ago, and it was determined that there really was nothing to be gained apart from just matching the ports and smoothing up the rough casting and flashing in the ports.

i would bet a dollar to a dog turd that just cleaning things up vs a full blown port job that the net difference would be less than a half percent in either efficiency or net power gain... so small the gains that they would fit nicely in the margin of error.

bob g



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shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 12:58:17 AM »
If I were a betting man....I'd bet $100 you're both wrong. Air is a lot heavier than you think. I don't know what YOUR Lister ports look like, but if they are anything like mine, 3/4 - 1 HP may be a conservative estimate on potential porting gains.

I'll let you know how it goes after I do the work and put a big heavy load on the thing.

mobile_bob

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 03:41:54 AM »
if i were a betting man i would take your bet!  ;)

before you go to all the work porting, run a serious battery of tests to get a baseline to start with
then do a basic port match and cleanup/retest, then do the full monty and retest.

otherwise your reports are going to be heavily scrutinized and we would have no way to tell if there were improvements made or not.

that being said, don't let anyone discourage you, if you are bent on doing the porting job, by all means knock yourself out.

prove everyone wrong, prove the engineering text wrong, but be sure to do the documentation correctly or it will be seen as just another bold claim with no supporting evidence.

best of luck
bob g
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shiftless

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 08:21:47 PM »
OK, I will do a "before and after" test. I have a number of 250-400-600-750-1000W loads that I can stack up on the motor til it starts smoking, and a Kill A Watt to measure each and see what the total draw is. I will then port the head and run the same test again to see what the difference is. Again, maybe it's just my particular "direct injection" head that sucks, but there is a freakin 1" vertical wall right there in the bowl area that is a major restriction. I am LAUGHING at any suggestion there is no gain to be had here.

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Fuel efficiency shouldn't be greatly affected, as long as the thing has enough air to start with, putting more in a diesel won't help much.

Under a partial load, it isn't about "putting more air in the engine." It's about reducing pumping losses by removing restrictions.

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 Power yes if you turn the wick up or if the thing was starving for air in the first place but that's the thing.

Yeah that's the thing...it IS starving for air. What do you suppose the volumetric efficiency is on one of these old iron lungs? I guarantee you it isn't over 75%, and is probably much lower. Less restriction = more airflow = better fuel efficiency = more air available at HIGH LOAD = less smoking and more peak continuous power.

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If' it's getting enough air now, giving it more won't help unless you give it more fuel to make power but that's not the same as getting more work from the same amount of fuel .

If the motor is smoking under maximum load, then what effect does more air have in that situation? Less smoke, more power!

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I was going to suggest taking some sort of measurement of the engine power before and after the work but then I remembered you had a problem with the engine so you probably aren't inclined to put it back together just to run a test then pull it again. I wouldn't be.  That said, if you do have any tangible loads you have driven that you can make a comparison with, I'm always happy to be proven wrong on things like this.

As I don't have any power source available other than this engine, it is definitely going to complicate the work a little. I will have to charge up the compressor, shut it all down, pull the head, port it some, clean up and reinstall, run and recharge the tank, shut it down, etc. I figure it will probably take 10-12 tanks worth to get it all done so it's definitely going to be a pain, but at least the head only takes like 1 minute to remove if all the tools are in place.

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the shape of the port even though somewhat odd can and does have an effect over how the cylinder is scavenged... so unless you really understand what is needed there, porting can result in a much dirtier running engine.

Yes, I do really understand what is needed. I can take one look at the port and identify several areas in need of major help, and that's just the intake port. When you have ported dozens of cylinder heads then it becomes immediately obvious where the restrictions are on any given head.

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far more heads on any engine have been ruined and/or performance degraded by porting than have been improved by guys in a home shop.

That may be true in a general sense, but I am an airflow expert. I appreciate your concern, but I am not some clueless redneck with a die grinder. Every head I've ported and put on an engine has made more power, often considerably so. This one will be no exception.

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I was looking at the exhaust the other day wondering if a long straight exhaust might have some scavenging effect on the cylinder.  Given the pulsing nature of the engine, I am sure it would but finding the right length and diameter pipe would be a fun exercise... Not.

Actually it is really simple. The exact number can be calculated based on the speed of sound and runner length. Someone mentioned 14 ft which sounds about right. Even if you are an inch or two off you will still get noticeable gains as the effect lasts as long as the intake/exhaust valve is open. Check this out:

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29113&sid=d0fca2fee0eb80970bf4374f3137902b

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The trick really with one of these engines is not power as much as torque. We can get more power just resetting the governor and spinning the thing up faster, what we really want is more torque at the same RPM.

Yep...and anything which reduces pumping losses (increased volumetric efficiency) will give you that extra torque!

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I have to admit, since seeing it on the Utterpower site I have been keeping an eye out for a cheap turbo to put on the roid. May not work very well but it sure would look cool!   Grin
I'm a big believer in turbos especially  on Diesels. I have had 2 same models vehicles, one NA and one with a conservative Turbo boost and the difference is night and day.  My 75 yo father has a Subaru Forrester turbo and that thing is just ridiculously fast for what it is and again, the difference over the NA models in incomparable.
I imagine a lister could handle a fair bit of boost as well and the power gains could be highly significant.

I have experience with building turbo engines and a turbo kit is definitely on the agenda, for this winter or next summer. I can say for certain just by looking at it, that this beast of an engine can swallow MASSIVE boost and survive it just fine. I still have research to do on the fuel system as I am a bit rusty on diesels in general and Listers in particular, but as long as I can get a pump/injector on this thing that can supply enough fuel, 10kW continuous (reliable) power output should be well within the realm of possibility. 20+ PSI is a piece of cake and 30-40+ should be achievable with correct turbo sizing.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 08:29:52 PM by shiftless »

millman56

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2013, 09:38:11 PM »
Whilst I admire your plans for improving breathing on this 80 year old design and am sure you will get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it,  to me and I may be missing the point here,  it seems like a lot of work to acheive what a Perkins/Kubota/Isuzu/Yanmar could give without modification.                                                                     Am looking forward to reading of your findings.

Mark.

Schwen

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »
Hey Shiftless, I like your thinking, but as a conservative engineer, I'm a little cautious about the quantum of potential gains from the porting work. That said, there's a real opportunity for the rest of us to learn something from your extensive experience applied to a Lister.

Can you take some photos of the ports you're going to work, maybe mark up on the photos the areas you're going to clean up? Then some after photos as well? I'm sure there are other members following this thread who would like to see what shape and form the head is and will soon be.

Photo posting instructions are found here:http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=5796.0

cheers, Schwen

Tom

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2013, 12:44:46 AM »
Interesting discussion, while I'm not real optimistic that porting will make much difference, there is an interesting aspect of the CS 6/1 engines that has not been discussed here before. Yes these are low low rpm engines, however when the do inhale it's a big gulp of air. I guess to accurately analyze the situation we'd need to know the velocity of the air flow during the intake/exhaust stroke to know if there is much improvement to be had. Or an experienced person could port one and measure the performance difference.

On my roid I port matched to the gaskets and even at that things are far from ideal. It will be interesting to see your results.
Tom
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mike90045

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Re: Porting a Lister cylinder head and intake
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2013, 02:21:03 AM »
As I don't have any power source available other than this engine, it is definitely going to complicate the work a little. I will have to charge up the compressor, shut it all down, pull the head, port it some, clean up and reinstall, run and recharge the tank, shut it down, etc. I figure it will probably take 10-12 tanks worth to get it all done so it's definitely going to be a pain, but at least the head only takes like 1 minute to remove if all the tools are in place.

As I'm about to dive into my head and cylinder, what's the general opinion on the factory head studs. I'm looking at just 3 remove/installs, you are about to do a dozen, can I/we expect the studs & threads to hold up ?