Author Topic: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH  (Read 10239 times)

fattywagonman

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Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« on: March 25, 2007, 03:26:39 AM »
Lately I've been interested in the cost per kW when making power with a Petteroid, Listeroid, Changfa and any other fuel burning generator.... at different speeds and with different gen heads...

Martin Nile reports that his Changfa consumed .127 of a gal per kWH of electricity... that's .30 cents per kWH @ a fuel cost of $2.40

James Lerch reports that his Changfa used .09 gals per kWH at a load of 9kW...

http://lerch.no-ip.com/ChangFa_Gen/Day_07/Gen_Compare_Gal.gif

Thats a cost per kW of .21 cents per kWH @ fuel cost of $2.40

Any other data out there???
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 03:17:21 PM by fattywagonman »

OffGrid

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 04:42:19 AM »
I have been running my 6/1, 24/7 on WVO.

I tried to work out the cost, factoring in the fuel at $0.10 per liter (covers the cost for pick up, filters & paper towel) and the engine life (at far to high a reasonable number for a pride of India Lister) and came to about $0.15 per kWh. 

In truth this is a hobby. If you factored in your time per hour at the same rate as the fuel ($0.10), lub oil for the valves  & parts for the engine, I guess your looking at something closer to $0.30 per KWH and thats on WVO.

Just the same, I tell my wife $0.15 and she's happy!  ;)
Listeroid 6/1
2 - Kubota EA300
5kw Wind Turbine
1kw Wind Turbine
750 watt solar array

fattywagonman

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 03:20:03 PM »
Ya but Off grid is burning WVO... that's usually free fuel... BTW why are you running 24/7? Seems wasteful to run the engine all the time..... The fuel used for that first few hundred watts of power is a lot...

OffGrid

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 04:40:55 PM »
I am lazyRunning 24/7 for several reasons. 
 
First I am lazy, if I keep the engine running I don’t have to purge out the WVO and try to start a cold
engine.   ;D
 
Kidding aside, the main reason is that the engine is in a garage/shop and has a heat exchanger on the
exhaust so it keeps the shop warm. Electrical energy running at full load is used to run electric heaters in the
main shop. 
 
I want to know if and how long this configuration will operate reliably. The combined energy output from
the generator and heat extracted off the engine should meet my heating needs for about half the winter.
During the coldest months I would have to run 2, 6/1 or a 12/2. 
 
If this proof of concept unit works out, I will trench in some insulated coolant lines for a heat exchanger in
the main shop. So in my case, the price per kWh is lower since did not factor in the heat extracted into the
equation.
Listeroid 6/1
2 - Kubota EA300
5kw Wind Turbine
1kw Wind Turbine
750 watt solar array

cujet

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 06:29:29 PM »
I come up with 30-40 cents per KWH just for fuel and oil, depending on my calculations.

I also have done the math concerning capital costs and repairs. If you take in to account my estimate of 5000 hours between overhauls, the estimated (addmittedly low) cost of overhaul, the belts, gen head MX, filters and the like, the total is up well over 50 cents per KWH.


HOWEVER, a quality Honda (or similar) genset burning gasoline would cost you more. I know this as we burned 315 gallons of gasoline running my house after the hurricane. Gas was 3 bucks a gallon and my 5500 watt genset really does not produce much in the way of actual power most of the time. Add in the synthetic oil changes every 2 days, and the cost exceeded 1000 bucks! Plus I need a new gas genset now too.


Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

hotater

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 07:11:01 PM »
I kept track of my first 6-1/5ST the first 3500 hours or so and came up with $.34/KW in $2.75 fuel and lube oil.  Time and parts are in addition to that.

I changed to twin fuel tanks on the new engine, which reset my internal estimations learned on the old engine by how often I added fuel, and I haven't kept track of anything but the time....1512hrs and still going.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Biloxibad

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2007, 07:13:12 PM »
Here is a chart of some real tests I made on My Zx1125 ( changfa type) with an ST15 gen head

test          Amp   volt   watt   GPH   $PH   cost per Kwh
actual test   0.0      0   0.414   $1.06    
actual test   19.1   230   4400   0.677   $1.74    $0.3957
actual test   27.0   230   6210   0.950   $2.44    $0.3929
actual test   52.0   230   11960   1.120   $2.88    $0.2407
actual test   65.2   230   14996   1.124   $2.89    $0.1926
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

Biloxibad

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2007, 07:18:17 PM »
can't seem to get it to print out right
actual test   Amp        volt   watt   GPH   $PH   cost per Kwh
actual test   0.0   ----   ------   0.414   $1.06    ---
actual test   19.1   230   4400   0.677   $1.74    $0.3957
actual test   27.0   230   6210   0.950   $2.44    $0.3929
actual test   52.0   230   11960   1.120   $2.88    $0.2407
actual test   65.2   230   14996   1.124   $2.89    $0.1926

Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

mjn

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2007, 05:15:01 PM »
A couple of notes about my ".127 gal/kwh" figures.

First thing is that this was done using Waste Vegetable Oil as fuel.  WVO has somewhat less energy than diesel.  Next, my measurements were not done at a single load level.  I was running laundry at the time (My wife thought this was a great idea).  The load varied from less than a thousand watts to over 5000 watts.  Finally, my technique for measuring the fuel was fairly crude.  (I poked a stick into the fuel tank and calculated the volume of fuel consumed.)

I really want to do the same sort of tests that James Lerch did.  I want to find the "sweet spot" where I get the most out of my fuel.

After I get my generator controller finished, I'll see if I can rig up a more controlled fuel consumption test.

Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

SCOTT

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2007, 05:40:02 PM »
MJN

I saw the control schematics on your web page, do you have an estimated cost for all of the components you plan to use for this?  I am very interested in the automation and data logging such a system will be able to provide. 

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

mjn

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 12:40:09 AM »
Hi Scott,

I am building the controller using wirewrap and hand solder, so there is no cost involved with producing a PCB.    The most expensive part was the stepper motor/leadscrew which I am using to move the speed lever on the engine.  I got it on fleabay for about $50.  The ATMega8 cpu costs about $5. Most everything else I had onhand, so my out of pocket expense is less than $70.

The real cost will be the time that it takes me to write the software.  I finished wiring up the board last night.  I'll start debugging and writing software.  Unfortunately, I program computers all day long at work, so this part of the project will seem more like work.  Once I get the software done, I plan on releasing the code under the GPL, or BSD license.


Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

mjn

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 02:26:58 AM »
Hi Jens,  Click on the image  on my site, you will be given a full resolution png image.    (The full image is here: http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/gencontrol.png.) So as to not clutter up this thread, I'll start a new thread once I get the controller actually doing something.
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

fattywagonman

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 02:55:39 PM »
Yesterday I delivered one of my Pettergens to a guy who lives off grid solar... he has a 30kW propane gen and the cost to fuel it is killing him... I think the little petter will be much better for his application.... especially if he uses CHP... He's a rancher living in the middle of several thousand acres... I asked him why he chose to live off grid and he said PG&E quoted him over $100K to establish power.... so it was a no brainer...

So far the consensus seems to be something like .25 - .35 cents per kW to make power with fuel costing about $2.50 - $3.00 /  gal.... Lots of folks pay something close to this price from the utility... Remember  that these little diesels are only about 30% efficient at best....just imagine what the impact of a 10-15 % efficiency gain would have on the cost to make power...

mactoollover2005

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Re: Cost per kWH / fuel used per kWH
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 06:18:08 PM »
hideho good neighbours
            I f we could improve the efficency it would be great,just think more $ in your pocket and not have to tell the other half ;), could save up for more toys to play with. ;D
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek