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Author Topic: Soldering a fuel tank  (Read 15627 times)

Doug

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Soldering a fuel tank
« on: March 07, 2007, 04:37:40 AM »
After much searching ( about 15 minuts worth in the bone yard ) I've decided I should make a fuel tank for Gus.

Then I read a post on SmokeStak about a fellow that made a reproduction Steel tank and soldered it.

I assume he used a much higher tin alloy than I'm used to using. The Silver is no good ( at least the stuff I used in the motor shop too much heat needed ) so what kind of solder is right for joining a steel tank, and what kinf of acid flux is best. How big of an Iron do I need and or should I try electric or copper heated by torch ect...

Way out there with this post I know, I'm on a "If I can't make it Gus don't need it kick"....

Educate me fellow motor heads!!!

Here is a link to the fellow that made his
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36013&highlight=made+tank

Doug
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 04:55:14 AM by Doug »
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Guy_Incognito

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 06:26:56 AM »
Hmm. I've never really had any trouble with the "standard" 60/40 on tinplate/mild steel with a decent acid flux. That is, all the containers I've made have never leaked......

A few things :

- 60/40 solder should do it. The triangular solder sticks about a foot long and 3/8" on each side are good for this kind of thing.
- You'll probably need a small gas torch, electric irons would be a little on the small side, unless you've got a 300-watter about the place. You can cook the solder with the gas torch, so use it to heat a seam and then sweat solder into it - just like 'normal' soldering it should flow into the seam nicely by itself. I've one that's basically a burner on top of a small disposable can, nothing special, throws maybe a 1" blue flame.
- I use "Bakers Soldering Fluid", acid based. Run it along the seam, sizzle it a bit with the torch. Don't breathe the fumes  :D

When I was doing this kind of thing many years ago, I used to make a "J" on the end of each piece of tin, hook them together and (gently!) hammer flat. You then solder the side that's accessible and the hammered-flat J makes a small recess to leave a nice bead of solder in. Putting the top and bottom halves of a tank on, I would probably form a lip (Kind of a sideways "S" shape) around the top of the lower piece, dished enough to hold a small amount of solder, make a matching lip on the top half, tin both parts with extra solder on the bottom part, place together, and sweat with the torch.

Jim Mc

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 01:23:21 PM »
I'd not use 60/40.  It's close to a eutectic alloy.  As such, it changes directly from  liquid to solid on cooling.   Alloys like 50/50, 30/70, etc go through a mushy pasty stage.  This is good for this type of work since you can push the pasty stuff around and not have it drain down a small   hole or gap in the work.

Make  sure the work is clean, use acid flux, and be careful not to use more heat than needed.

Tom

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 05:46:14 PM »
Another good way to go is to braze it. I just repaired the fuel tank on my old Bolens Huskey 800 with a torch and a flux coated brazing rod. I like brazing things because it seems to have a good putty like consistency at working temp which works great for filling holes and gaps. It also has much more mechanical strength then solder.
Tom
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ronmar

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 09:35:57 PM »
How big of a tank are you making?  I have soldered small model boat and aircraft tanks together and i have brazed some together also.  If I have a oxy/acc torch, I think I would just go ahead and weld it though.  Unless it is something that has to be a particular shape, or I happen to have a lot of time on my hands(rare these days), I usually go for recycling something else or making something out of an existing structure such as a 5 or 10 gallon portable air tank like Harbor Freight sells.  By the time I cut and shaped the pieces for the structure and assembled it, I would have well exceeded $20 worth of my time. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41712

These can even be had for less at the roving truckload tool sales or at the local Wallmart on sale.

Good Luck
Ron
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Doug

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 12:06:14 AM »
You know... I think your right.

I got caught up in the old school idea of making a cool looking tank.
I have few steel portable marine tanks they just lack the retro style that I like.

Doug
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wrightkiller

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 12:18:12 AM »
Doug:   how about this one   http://saturnsurplus.com/miscpage/fueltank.htm $28.00


  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:38:21 AM by wrightkiller »

Doug

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 12:38:15 AM »
Ya but it may as well be on Mars. I like the tank but importing from the USA is a real hastle unless it can be sent in the mail.

Doug
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rosietheriviter

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 01:45:15 AM »
Hmm. I've never really had any trouble with the "standard" 60/40 on tinplate/mild steel with a decent acid flux. That is, all the containers I've made have never leaked......
- 60/40 solder should do it. The triangular solder sticks about a foot long and 3/8" on each side are good for this kind of thing.
- You'll probably need a small gas torch, electric irons would be a little on the small side, unless you've got a 300-watter about the place. You can cook the solder with the gas torch, so use it to heat a seam and then sweat solder into it - just like 'normal' soldering it should flow into the seam nicely by itself. I've one that's basically a burner on top of a small disposable can, nothing special, throws maybe a 1" blue flame.
- I use "Bakers Soldering Fluid", acid based. Run it along the seam, sizzle it a bit with the torch. Don't breathe the fumes  :D

When I was doing this kind of thing many years ago, I used to make a "J" on the end of each piece of tin, hook them together and (gently!) hammer flat. You then solder the side that's accessible and the hammered-flat J makes a small recess to leave a nice bead of solder in. Putting the top and bottom halves of a tank on, I would probably form a lip (Kind of a sideways "S" shape) around the top of the lower piece, dished enough to hold a small amount of solder, make a matching lip on the top half, tin both parts with extra solder on the bottom part, place together, and sweat with the torch.
Hi Guy,
This is my first post (after my hello) and I can say my grandaddy was a tinsmith.  I went with him many times in the early 50's as he built sheetmetal structures and parts.
He used a bar of solder about 3/4" wide by about 1/2" thick.  Maybe 12-16 inches long, seems like the solder bar was stamped "60/40".  Not really sure from more than 50 years ago.  He used a small furnace resembeling a coffee can burning charcoal that looked like burnt wood, not briquets.  He placed a large "iron" maybe 2"x2"x6" made of copper with a handle around 24" long into the "furnace" and then used the iron to heat the metal before touching it with the solder.  The solder always flowed into the joint like grease in a skillet.  Sometimes when he was in a hurry he would heat the iron with a blowtorch, a pump up white gas fueled torch to heat the soldering iron.
I asked him "why not just use the torch to heat the metal?" and he said "silly girl, the torch will just warp the metal!"  Of course, the metal was always copper or very light weight galvanized or tin metal so this might not apply in your application.

Rose is Rose
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Guy_Incognito

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 02:52:53 AM »
I have to say, I never had any trouble with what I was doing - but that doesn't mean it was the best way  :D

The torch is used pretty sparingly - the flame never touches the metal, it's held at a fairly respectful distance. A big chunky iron would no doubt be better.... but I never seemed to have one handy when I needed to solder something.

Doug

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 02:55:08 AM »
Talk to an electrician at work Dave, maybe they can scare up a heavy chunk of bus bar you just need to fab a handle after that
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robert47

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 03:52:34 PM »
Hi gang, first post.  I'm a semi-retired auto mechanic with about 35 years in the "automotive heating and cooling" field. In short a radiator shop worker and then owner for 18 of those 35 years.  I have worked with solder for a long time and have experienced what it is and is not suited for.  If I may offer these few words of wisdom:

Solder is a like a plating process.  Unlike welding, which liquifies both pieces of metal and fills with more molten metal, solder just "sticks" to the surface.  So, if it ain't clean it ain't gonna stick!  I used a product from the Barbee company in Louisville, KY called Tin Tastic.  Neet stuff.  It's a mixture of zink chloride, ground up lead, tin and zink in a paste form.  Brush it on, heat it up and presto the surface is plated (tinned) and ready to take solder.  I also used a nifty torch made by National.  It burned natural gas or propane and compressed air right out of the shop compressor. Extremely adjustable from a weeny little 1/2" flame right up to a 6" long bright blue scorcher.  Over the years I tried different blends of solder.  Wound up using 40/60 for everything including fuel tank repairs.  Never seemed to have a problem.  I couldn't get enought heat with a soldering iron to do much good besides, the torch was much faster.

Guy's idea of a J type channel is a good one as tight joints are a must with soldering and the added mass of additional layers of metal will help to decrease warping on long pieces.  If you can't make a J channel then try to do what Andrew Albrecht did.  Notice in his picture of the end, he made a pan and then slodered (I think) about an inch wide seam together for a very strong connection between the two. Can't tell how he made the front seam but it's nice and wide, also for good strength.  This guy knows what he's doing. 

I don't know about brazing cuz every time I tried to braze two pieces of sheet metal together it came out lookig like a piece of corrigated roofing!  Too much heat required me thinks.  It's stronger than solder though. 

How are you going to mount this tank?  On a separate stand not connected to the motors vibrations is best.  If you do mount it to the motor I would suggest using straps and cradles.  EL brackets welded to the tank will eventually crack near the welds from the constant vibrations.  If you've ever noticed a car or pickup fuel tank that's the way the majority of them are installed.

Anyway, if you you live in Canada there's a company called Spectra Premium in Windsor that sells all kinds of radiator parts, euipment
and supplies.  That is if you find the need.  If they can't / won't help you PM me and we'll figure something out.  If you do call them tell them you're Doug's Radiator Shop as they won't sell to the public.

Thanks for reading my blather,
Bob

rosietheriviter

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 03:55:57 PM »
I have to say, I never had any trouble with what I was doing - but that doesn't mean it was the best way  :D
The torch is used pretty sparingly - the flame never touches the metal, it's held at a fairly respectful distance. A big chunky iron would no doubt be better.... but I never seemed to have one handy when I needed to solder something.

Hi Guy,
I didn't intend to insult you or anything like that.  I think Grandaddy talked to me that way was to keep me from realizing how infatuated he was with his only granddaughter.  Obviously a torch will work, I was just relaying (and maybe reliving) an old experience.

How about this, "My  greatest hero always used a soldering iron, but I bet he would get the job done some way or another if he couldn't come up with and iron"

Rose is not on her motorcycle
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Doug

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 05:57:58 PM »
Bob, Rose, Dave, Jim, Tom, Doug and Ron ( hopefuly I havn't left anyone out )

Great posts and good advice thank you for your input.

Glad I came back, I learn more tricks here than any other technical forum I ever vissited.

Doug
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rosietheriviter

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Re: Soldering a fuel tank
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2007, 12:06:02 PM »
After much searching ( about 15 minuts worth in the bone yard ) I've decided I should make a fuel tank for Gus.
I assume he used a much higher tin alloy than I'm used to using. The Silver is no good ( at least the stuff I used in the motor shop too much heat needed ) so what kind of solder is right for joining a steel tank, and what kinf of acid flux is best. How big of an Iron do I need and or should I try electric or copper heated by torch ect...
Doug

Doug,
After many days of considering this question and answers, it looks to me like your questions were never really answered.  As I mentioned, my grandaddy was a tinsmith and he was a good one, he used a flame heated, large copper iron.  He used 67% tin-33% lead, cometimes called eutectic alloy.  He used sulphuric acid as a cleaner, and a paste flux which was an acid based flux and he used sal ammoniac as a tip cleaner for his soldering iron.  The iron was solid copper and might have weighed 2 or 3 pounds and it took a while to heat it but it really did the job.

Based on many posts I have read here, I think I will coin a phrase by saying "the GF way" is as listed above!  Not the only way, just the best way.

Rose on her motorcycle
Any resembalance to any correct spelling, punctuation,or grammar is purely coincidental!

A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to his country, for an amount of "up to and including my life."