New to the group,, saying hello~!`

[Geno]

Sodbust is almost certainly in the process of prepping thousands of acres which will soon be planted. He may use more gallons of fuel this season than all the members here use in a year. With all the $ he's got tied up in equipment I'm sure he'll have a look at his stuff and that will mean more to me than anything. The research he did was thourough and scientific. He's also not selling anything, he's giving it away.

Thanks, Geno

[mkdutchman]

i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.

I just don't have the time to waste at that type of activity Bob.
fatty inevitably makes it personal veryquickly by making unsupportable claims about me. he will not debate the facts. And the facts have already been posted many times in several forums. Repeating the arguments serves no good purpose. And considering the current demands on my time..both professional and that of family I simply cannot devote time to responding to personal attacks.

I said it before and will say it again........

.......you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling

Anyone that posts info as facts should be able to back up those facts, doesn't have to be a 2 foot long post, even a couple of meaningful links are usually sufficient, I don't think you'd have to take it out of your family.  If theories are posted they should be posted as such, the readers of this forum have the intelligence to make their own decisions, if they don't they shouldn't be here in the first place

[danalinscott]

I said it before and will say it again........

.......you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling

Anyone that wnat to take the trouble to track down this information usually can. Although the archives of the vo conversion forums have become harder and harder to search this has all been presented there before.

If you want links that might help you find this information I can provide a link to a "forum" that is really a place where that info is being gathered in an indexed form and will not be overwhelmed and buried in "chat" and repetitive posts from newbies and those who with to do nothing but argue. Unfortunately most of the forma studies are not public and are copyrighted...so theymust be purchased if one wishes to veiw them.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics
It is indexed so it is easy to search and you will find links to more informationin most of the posts related to this discussion.

I will be gone for 2 weeks moving my father from a short term nursing home to my sisters home 1500 miles away. I t is much more involved than it sounds. So it may be up to 3 weeks before I check back. I hope that you will apply this standard to all who choose to enter the discussion.  It is usually just applied to me in such discussions.

A more indepth tutorial on conversion is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1717671
A discussion on the differences between single tank and two tank conversions is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1561329
 
An indexed discussion on individual conversion components with links to vendors is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=55421   

[fattywagonman]

Anyone who is curious about how Dana and I play together should do a search injector line heaters over on the infopop forum... 

For the record I have posted hundreds of pictures of various experiments and products, and how to's on how to make various stuff like heated fuel lines and even the injector line heaters...... I am not stingy with my informaton... Visit my old web site www.fattywagons.com for some pics and info...

When Ken aka akghound had his lister's exhaust valve seize up due to running WVO in cold weather I sent him a heater to test for free...  I figure a single cylinder engine is the best thing for testing... As far as I know the engine has ran fine ever since... His home did burn a while ago so I'm not sure what is going on with Ken...  BTW I sent him a heater some time (6 months or more) before Dana ever offered an injector line heater...

I have also posted scientific data such as tailpipe testing results... It seems nothing I do will satisfy Dana...  but the frustrating thing is I've never seen any photos or results of his testing... just that grimey old boat tank...

Bob, why don't you ask him about the bank of listeroids with over 15K hours on SVO or the fleets of trucks he has converted.... Good luck getting any real info... Since he has decided to post here I will leave for a while... I've enjoyed discussing engine with you all...
John

[Doug]

I get pissed off when flaming begins and people leave....
It makes it that much harder for me because now I have to repeat mistakes rather than learn from people

[Andre Blanchard]

Oh, for the days when people just went out behind the barn and got it over and done with.

[danalinscott]

Oh, for the days when people just went out behind the barn and got it over and done with.

Amen!

It makes it that much harder for me because now I have to repeat mistakes rather than learn from people

Although I have to devote more and more time to paying customers all the time I try to also support those experimenting with or trying to learn more about VO fuel conversion on the hobbiest level. Please let me know if you post anything and would like me to post what experience I may have had relating to that post.  It is always my hope that others can learn from my experiences and hopefully avoid repeating the exact failures I have had.  I may not notice new posts so an email with a link to any post you want my input on will be helpful.

As to those who just want to pick a fight on any forum....it got old a long time ago. If someone wants to grind an axe they can have at it anytime....I just don't feel any obligation to respond.

[skeeter]

Over the last couple of months, I have been following this subject with interest. Myself, I've gone the two tank wvo route. Others may elect to use bio-diesel, a blended fuel, woodgas, or diesel. What has impressed me about this forum overall, is the diversity of backgrounds of the members, and the solutions they bring to the table. This diversity has in many discussions, giving me a variety of points of view, which I otherwise might not have considered. This is how forums work at their best. With few exceptions, I have found the members to be mostly open to listen to others ideas and practices, as long as their not based on BS. What I have gotten and value most, are the lessons learned through experience. I believe, none of us has a complete handle on every aspect of this or any other subject. Just my opinion. The bottom line is we can generally learn something from each other. Now back to the subject at hand. Regarding wvo, I don't know of anyone who would use it without first doing something to bring it viscosity down near diesel, either by blending or heating. And the consensus seems to be, don't introduce straight wvo to an engine, unless the engine has been warmed up. I believe the use of it in a stationary engine genset, like the lister type, is a much more controlled, with fewer complications then a mobile arrangement such as a vehicle. In my case, the engine sits in an insulated room where temperature and load are easily controlled, in an environment that periodic maintenance and even repair can easily be performed. To be honest, I don't know the long term effects of using this fuel. I do everything I can to insure that it is well filtered and dewatered before being used. I will periodically pull the head for decoking. At the same time, I will inspect rings and cylinder for wear and or build up. I will then adjust my maintenance intervals based on what is observed.  Over time, a body of data and experiences will be available for sharing to others. I only hope we all allows other to share their lessons in whatever course they take, and learn from their experiences. Honestly, the worth of this forum is diminished if we prevent the free flow of ideas and experiences to take place.  Just my opinion.

[danalinscott]

Ok..but I am not sure if this means that those of us with extennsive experience should speak up when we see misinformation presented or not.

Unfortunately misinformation usually comes from those who are relativly new to the field and are simply very excited about the possibilities. I am sure they do not intend to present misinformation...they are just a bit over enthusiastic and have not bothered to thorouly check to see if what they think they are seeing...which is often liittle more than wishful thinking..iis backed up ro contradicted by the body of knowledge established up to this point.

I really do hate to quash enthusiasm..but then again if unrealistic claims and/or misinformation is presented adn not a single person speaks up to question it...it becomes  a "factiod" that then tends to screw up anyone who depends upon it as factual.

So....do you want those with lots of experience to speak up in cases such as this...or remain silent?

[skeeter]

danalinscott -

I definitely want those with the most experience to contribute. I'm not saying to sit by and give a pass to unsubstantiated claims. I'm just saying that sometimes exploring the subtle differences in process and application can be worthwhile.
The claim of 25% performance gain was eyepopping, to say the least. Although my knowledge is limited in this regard, I was hoping for more discussion concerning the chemistry, or lack of. On the face, this doesn't appear possible, but I have yet to consult with a chemist. Trying to enlist Sodbust chemist sources to participate in this discussion, may have been interesting.

 Regarding use and wear, I believe my own genset application may have more in common with farm equipment then the typical motor vehicle use. Like farm equipment, my genset is running long hours under fairly constant load. I would guess longer distance tractor trailer operation would also be a similar application. Your experience in retrofitting tractor trailers and any resultant reliability data, would have my interest My own experiences, have made me cautious when it comes to generalizations. Sometimes slight alterations in conditions, yield considerably different outcomes. I also bear responsibly for listening on the sidelines, and not actively probing, when the discussion was active.

[danalinscott]

The claim of 25% performance gain was eyepopping, to say the least. Although my knowledge is limited in this regard, I was hoping for more discussion concerning the chemistry, or lack of. On the face, this doesn't appear possible, but I have yet to consult with a chemist. Trying to enlist Sodbust chemist sources to participate in this discussion, may have been interesting.

This was established long ago to be physically impossible. There is simply not as many BTUs in VO as in diesel. And adding VO to diesel fuel as a blend lowers the available BTUs.  It woudl fall into the classification of miracle additive if one claims that adding VO somehow increases power/mileage while at the same time the available energy in a gallon is being lowered.

Regarding use and wear, I believe my own genset application may have more in common with farm equipment then the typical motor vehicle use. Like farm equipment, my genset is running long hours under fairly constant load. I would guess longer distance tractor trailer operation would also be a similar application.

Actually although field tractors and tractor traielrs might seem to be constant duty engines and so very similar to gensets they are not. The load is not nearly as constant as with a genset under most conditions and so the flamefront carachteristics  inside the conbustion chamber are significantly different. Significant enough that the extra modifications often needed on a diese powereing a generator or pump are not required on either usually.

I am usually willing to involve myself in a discussion on a subject that has not already been discussed to death somewhere else. The one exception is when a poster decides to start making personal attacks. I have learned to simply ignore those that do if the moderator is not moderating personal attacks out.  I barely have the time avaialble to participate in fourms when I feel my participation may make a positive difference. Participating in personal attacks...flamefests..is rarely productive and so rarely have a positive outcome.  Generally they simply result in fewer willing to particiapte in the discussion....especially those with significant experience to share.

[skeeter]

The load is not nearly as constant as with a genset under most conditions and so the flamefront carachteristics inside the conbustion chamber are significantly different. Significant enough that the extra modifications often needed on a diese powereing a generator or pump are not required on either usually.

I'm not sure what is meant by "extra modifications". Could you expand on this point?

[danalinscott]

I'm not sure what is meant by "extra modifications". Could you expand on this point?

Sure. But the info will be buried here since it is so off topic.

Please post your question at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1710537 so others can find the info easier later.

Dana

[villageidjit]

Danial, welcome.
I too, would like more information on your svo/gas mix, and your centrifuge project.  Thanx for the link to your website, I found it very interesting!
Cheers, Fred

Fred,

This post is essentially a "bump" to bring it back to the top of the list.  Sorry all but I think some of this information should (or could) answer
Fred's question in the thread where he asked about blending veggie, dino and acetone.

I guess I really mean the first half dozen posts, not the "war" between Fattywagon and Dana Linscott that follow.

Vic

[sodbust]

Hello all,

Sorry for being gone so long, but lack of a labor pool and a big farm had me all tied up this summer.

Still into fall harvest, but ran over a deer horn and smoked a combine tire first thing today.  So some time off today.  Calling all deer hunters!!! We have mule deer out here that would dress out at 800 lbs.

I had a some great phone calls over the summer and had time to run some dyno tests as such.

Regarding the phone calls,, several from some top fuel chemists and there overview on my system leads them to think that with the slower burning unleaded gas along with the hydogen based fuel from veg oil is doing somthhing un knowen inside the engine at injection. They feel there is a second flame front going on which is lowering EGT by 200f and pumping up the turbo 15%.. I have added more testing results on my web site, www.oilcrusher.5u.com under the detail of testing page.

Due to the higher market value of sf seeds this fall, and the amount of meal I can use with my cattle,, I sold most of my sf production this year.  What I am doing is using my sf fuel as an additive to normal #2 diesel.  The bang Im getting is a constant 30 to 35% fuel savings.  That amounts to about 50 gallons a day less fuel I have to buy for my combine in one day.  Just 10% seems to complety change the fuel and give me my added return.

The only dynos we have out here are field water pumping engines. A constant load, with a gallon per minute meter to re set for another test.  I feel it is a very constant load and made for a solid testing platform.   The pet engine I had use of is a 3.9L Cunmins running right at 1850 rpms pumping 1500 gallon per minute of water from 250 feet deep. Starting with a pre heated engine, loading it the same between tests I feel I came up with some useable data.

The little Cummins carried its normal load at 3.8 gph running on #2 farm diesel.  The EGT was a steady 820f and had 8 lbs turbo boost.  Running a 20% blend of my sf fuel to #2 diesel the engine fuel use dropped to 2.6 gph and the EGT dropped to 612f with the turbo boost at 12 lbs.

I understand that the btu numbers do not match the performance, and how does one gain turbo pressure with lower EGT.. I know..  But its happening.

Daniel