Simple Question

[jimmer]

This forum and many other web sites are filled with horror stories about Indian listers.

If this is the rule, how do these builders stay in business?

It seems that if the locals in some third world country waste their hard earned money on a piece of crap that word would spread fast.

Could it be that these engines will (for the most part) run just fine with many of there shortcomings?

I don't really think that the village elders plan on rebuilding their engine when they first receive it.

Just a simple question.

All the best,

Jim

[Doug]

I ask myself the same questions.
Here's what I've been told by others....
Some exporters and importers see us as boobs that will buy stuff sight unseen and are just in it for a quick buck.
Some produce good products, but with bugs that need to be worked out.
Some people are spreading fear in order to sell this product to you over that one.
Some stuff is getting damaged by the shippers who aren't interested in keeping the rain out rough handling ect.

I don't know much myself I get close to plucking down a money order then back away because I read a bad review.

Look at this link...

http://turneffecoconut.com/index.html#med

Here's a funny story as it turn out he's a Canadian I found tottaly by accident when I clicked on a wrong email address. He worked in the same mine I did (some 30 years previous to me) and so just because he was an Inco guy I am inclined to trust his words as truth. He uses a Lovson Lister and rus it on waste oil, and it works every day for him. Peter even told me he was looking to buy another one maybe bigger. I told him about Powerline and the Lovson connection and he said thats verry intersting but he knows Lovson and  knows what he's getting sort of thing.

So were at square one and who are you going to trust. I wish we had some way of contacting people in real third world conditions with real engines to ask them for feed back, but odds are they spent their money on engines grinding mills and candle stick makers, not PCs with internet connections.

Doug

[rpg52]

If you haven't already, I'd urge you to study the Utterpower.com website.  The CD George B. sells is also well worth the $.  This should give you an overview of the state of Listeroid quality or lack thereof.  The best way to think of these engines (I'm using George's analogy here) is as a "kit", with all the necessary pieces to make a high quality work engine, similar to the one made by the Lister company of UK fame.  In my own opinion, any farmer in the 3rd world can barely afford these engines at their current price.  They certainly are familiar with both the original Listers and the Listeroid copies and would know exactly what to do to clean up the engines and make them into a reliable engine prior to operating them.  It primarily involves labor, scraping off rust, cleaning out sand, disassembling and reassembling the engine parts, making sure there isn't any sand, bits of iron or curry in places it doesn't belong.  Not difficult, and any farmer familiar with these engines could likely do it in the dark with one hand tied behind their back.  Don't fall into the common first world mental trap of thinking that the billions of desperately poor farmers of the world are in any way stupid.  Ignorant or illiterate perhaps, but certainly not stupid.  The truely stupid ones never make it to the point of owning a farm, (unless perhaps they inheirit it, but only the bright ones keep it.)  These are third world engines, made to third world standards, but affordable as inexpensive entertainment to wealth North Americans.  (Not to criticize anyone on this forum, but most of us are at least wealthy enough to own a computer and afford internet access.)  If you begin with an understanding of the primary source and market for these engines, it makes more sense from our perspective why these engines are the way they are.  Then you can do your research, chose an engine design that meets your needs, and try to get one from a source that provides the cleanest engine possible.  Good luck, these are truely fun to work on, and have tremendous potential if you realize what you are getting.  As always, buyer beware, do your homework before giving anyone your cash.
Ray

[SHIPCHIEF]

My engine had only one serious problem; it was not well cleaned before assembly. All the parts seem good, the piston / liner / con rod / crank seem high quality. The cam idler gear appears OK but was removed due to known failures of others in it's series. One tappet would not turn. (ASHWAMEGH 25/2)
The Con rod bearings have imbedded sand along the oil distribution cuts, the main bearing bushings have lines scoured thru where the sand passed, and are now a little loose. The crank will polish out, I started with 400 paper from Shuck's auto parts.
In 7.5 hours of running the oil sump suction screen was 2/3 clogged with dirt / sand / carbon / whatever.
If I had simply changed the oil, washed the sump, and continued to run, it would continue to run. How long? Who knows. But somewhere along the way personal standards take effect (for me).
What I like about these engines goes beyond the 'buy it and use it' needs of a third world farmer. I can't relate to the use it until it breaks attitude. I bought and maintain mine as a lifetime engineering project.
My father in law's bomb shelter has a generator, an old army unit. It's the cutest little flathead 4 gas engine with a magneto etc. Must have been a real marvel in 1953 when he built the house / shelter. Today we see gasoline as a poor choice, and gas engines as limited to gasoline and propane (with a carb change).
I see the Lister as a multi fuel engine that is modular. If I have trouble with the ST gen head, no worries, because I am not stuck to an SAE #2 bell housing (whatever) mount I can adapt it to run anything. I can change the comression ratio by adding base gaskets made out of card board boxes. It will run on biodiesel, waste lube oil, straight veggie oil, used fry cook oil, or even fish oil like one fish plant in Alaska does. I can put some kind of carb on it and run gasoline, propane, natural gas, or wood gas.

[jimmer]

rpg52,

I have indeed done research on these engines. I have also purchased one (GM-90) that I am happy with.

My point is that I do not think that your average 3rd world customer is going to buy one with the knowledge that it must be torn down before using.

I do not think that the 3rd world customer is stupid, nor do I believe the the Indian builders are stupid or lazy.

I think these engines have a great deal of built-in forgiverness contrary to what some fearmongers would have us believe.

I am sure that the risk of getting a bad engine is there, but I still don't think the risk is as high as we are led to believe.

All the best,

Jim

[GerryH]

rpg52
you couldn't have said it better. The average third world farmer or craftsman is much more adept at using appropriate technology and being a DIYer than any North American with visions of high tech dancing in his head. The question really is-- could we survive in his world??

Gerry

[BruceM]

Jimmer,

I assumed when I bought my engine that most must be fine, and only a few had the problems covered in George's CD.  The Metro 6/1 I got was built in 2000 or 2002, back when they were aparently doing a pretty good job, an independant source told me. I thought it made sence to follow the CD's advice and disassemble the engine a bit to check for the common issues before starting it.

Every single item George covered was an issue with my engine.  It is mostly fit and finish- I spent a couple days but mostly spent $ on silicon carbide sandpape and some wear on my diamond hones.  The engine would have run OK. These were, as George says, longevity issues.  I didn't find sand (yet), but there were some signs of abrasive wear on the con rod bearing face that still make me nervous.

Based on my experience, you really should consider these a "kit" as George says.  I knew that going in thank's to George's CD (utterpowercom) which helped me have the right perspective from the start.  Not a single item he covered was "fear mongering"; every one needed some attention on my engine.  It was not a horrible job, but it did take some time.  Buy the CD before you buy the engine, and don't start it until you've gone through his checklist.  If it is full of sand, you don't want to do more damage; thourough cleaning and polishing and perhaps a few new parts may turn your engine into a reliable workhorse.  Even if it is relatively clean, you'll want to go through everything.  You should see what passes for a finish valve tappet face, valve cap, and rocker arm face in India!  (One of my valve tappets also didn't have the oil groove cut all the way, easily remedied by a dremel, or now with a high quality US part from George.)

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[jimmer]

BruceM,

I did buy George's CD and I did look at my engine closely before I ran it.

I have had a rotating tappet problem (easily fixed) so far.

However, I still do not understand why a village or farm would buy something that would not last or would need a rebuild before using.

Based on my limited 3rd world experence, many of these places would be hard pressed to even find a clean pan to wash a bearing in, much less do a field rebuild.

All the best,

Jim

[hotater]

jimmer---

I spent 1965 in Korea in an artillery battalion.  The village truck maker and engine builder was a wizard at getting something to run.  He used rawhide for rod bearings and porkrind for seals and turned his own pistons and valves on an ancient Lang lathe.  PRICE was king to him.  Labor to fix later was cheap.

I've gottten several emails from Listeroid users over the world since George linked to the album of what it took to re-build mine.  VERY interesting!

The worst of the Indian 'sand-storm' Listeroids will run several hundred hours with non-rotating tappets and sand in every bearing.  There's one outside Harai, Zimbawe that did fine for two months....
 The village mechanic replaced the bushings and shells, cleaned the piston rings and honed the cylinder, repaired the worn out tappets, did a valve job and had the engine running in less than a week using some of my pictures on a Missionary's laptop!  Talk about technology!!   

If motor mechanics can be equated to gunsmiths:   most are 'qualified' to work on really fine guns, but most don't appreciate OR understand what they see inside.

[jimmer]

hotater,

I appreciate what you are saying. But it still does not explain how these companies stay in business selling junk.

No matter where you are, word spreads. If a company sells "sand-storm" Listeroids how do they live down their reputation?

I still think most Listeroids will run a reasonable amount of time even if you don't rebuild them before use.

However I really wonder if "some" of these companies are in fact shipping their rejects to the dumb americans.

But thats just me talking.

All the best,

jim

[hotater]

jimmy---

Selling junk to Americans is the easist way to ruin.  THAT would be dumb for the *long* run.  I think the sprint is over and the long run has begun.  We'll see some new names pop up soon, if the engine market parralels the machine tool market of thirty years ago.  The names associated with 'junk' will fade and a new one take it's place, with much better quality and higher price.
  Japan flooded the American market for hobby lathes....most of them crude and rough.  THEN they introduced the next generation of lathe that *should* have been made to begin with.   I bought a crude lathe...then a better one.  I bet the engine thing is going to be the same.

 With 'entry quality' goods quality only applies to the *sale* not the goods.  If your check clears it was a GOOD sale.  As competition for a shrinking market kicks in there will be some new names with some really good workmanship show up....but the price will be MUCH higher.  Quality cost.  There's no way around it.  Japan found out GOOD machine tools sold very well and were competitive with Bridgeport and others, even with the trans-ocean shipping charges....same with cars, guitars and electronics.

ALSO---I doubt seriously there's any engine factory making the major parts of an engine and assembling them on site.  It's more of a cottage industry of various bits and pieces and the "engine company" is the latest collection of investors and assemblymen in a 'factory'.  The foundaries and the machine shops make parts...somebody else corrals them and puts a brand on them....some much better than others.

-----Third World Lifetime Guarantee----

If you buy it and it breaks, you own both pieces...GUARANTEED!!!

 

[jimmer]

hotaterie,

I kinda hear ya. But, you make it sound like the Indian's just started selling these engines.

They have been making and selling them for many decades now. The American market has got to be a very small percentage of their overall sales.

But that being said....It sounds like the Feds are going to make it all a moot point very soon anyway.

I'm glad I got mine when I did.

All the best,

jim

[SHIPCHIEF]

  Quality
  I've been de sanding my block for the last few days, after I needle scaled it then sent it out for a 4 day dip in a hot tank. I just keep getting more sand out. I'm needle scaling, poking, scraping, wire brushing, file work, and die grinding.
  The factory block prep was obviously poor, but how do you get the casting cleaned out correctly, without a man-day of hand work?
  I'm thinking it should be shot blasted? Too late now for me, I'm gonna call it quits and start putting it back together one requalified piece at a time, with my oil system upgrades etc.
But I sure would have done something else if I'd known from the start.
  Heck, I bet alot of you are thinking you were lucky and got an engine that didn't have any sand in it (that's what I thought at first). I also think you have sand. It's hard to get out even when you care alot.
  Now think about getting paid by the job for piece work, more pieces done = more pay, and it still aint much.
Still think you don't have sand? 
Scott E

[quinnf]

Scott,

Did you see the episode of MythBusters where they were trying novel ways of removing hardened concrete from the barrel of a concrete mixer?  They finally packed dynamite into the barrel and blew it up in a rock quarry.  Hmmm . . .

Just kidding.  If you're still getting sand, you've gotta have gotten 95% of what was there.  At this point, I think a couple of coats of the paint of your choice will cover a multitude of sins.  Then reassemble it and trust that ever-so-cool screen you made to catch the rest.  At some point you've gotta stop polishing the fruit at the bottom of the bowl (a reference to a Ray Bradbury short story I read 40 years ago and just now remembered). 

BTW, you've inspired me to yet another project.  I've got some bronze screen and the 1/8" brass rod.  Now just need to find the time to solder it together since I don't relish needlework with SS wire.

Quinn

[kpgv]

Hi All,
If you want to know how this stuff goes in a place where this type of machinery is THE source of power, or pumping, I would suggest you get on "utterpower" and read about Mamad in Iran (BTW a member of this list!), and for a North American "WAY off the grid" and expert problem solver, read the "hotater" posts.

Kevin