Author Topic: 12 volt battery bank  (Read 16859 times)

Doug

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2007, 05:48:43 PM »
Yes that would be nice.....

I don;t know anyhting about the use of blocking diodes and steering diodes. Our banks are exclusivley 120vdc or 250 vdc series. This makes its own troubles especialy when a battery fails and we have to replace a new one in a used bank....

Doug
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mike90045

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2007, 07:11:02 PM »
Are you aware of any resources on the internet that would be a good tutorial on this subject of parallelling batteries which you could share?

Here's the basic gist, while in parallel, connect feed & load diagionaly.  See the sketch here:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/attachment.php?attachmentid=43&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1191706958
 from the thread
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=1262

hope that helps.

rcavictim

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2007, 08:23:46 PM »
Are you aware of any resources on the internet that would be a good tutorial on this subject of parallelling batteries which you could share?

Here's the basic gist, while in parallel, connect feed & load diagionaly.  See the sketch here:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/attachment.php?attachmentid=43&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1191706958
 from the thread
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=1262

hope that helps.

No help there Mike,

They show the WRONG way to connect batteries in parallel, no isolation fuses or circuit breakers.  The diagional load connection (and charger connection) is correct.
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Doug

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 09:11:30 PM »
I have 3 banks of batteries for my UPS each has its own CB.

All the batteries in each bank are the same but two are made up of 6v gell cells and the third is pair of 12 v deap cycle. I switch between banks once a week so on 1 of the three is on a float charge. When I have needed the UPS because of a blackout I close all the CBs. I have about 12 hours of back up based on name plate. My gell cell batteries are 3 years old now and come up to the end of their life. The larger deap cycles are over 9 years old and WAY past their best before date.

I still have considerable back up for my sump pump but thats all this does.

The UPS is a very very old Sendon 400, no good for computers because the response time is too slow.
Only used the system a couple of times, but it was free. Time to upgrade my batteries.

Doug
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mike90045

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 10:54:39 PM »
It was the gist of it,  to add breaker/fuses. you just insert individual breaker/fuse between battery  + term and the + buss it connects to. 

Now the question is, which has less voltage drop, Fuse or Breaker ?

rcavictim

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 11:32:21 PM »
It was the gist of it,  to add breaker/fuses. you just insert individual breaker/fuse between battery  + term and the + buss it connects to. 

Now the question is, which has less voltage drop, Fuse or Breaker ?

Well fuses which do not cost much will not have suspect reliability like inexpensive breakers.  This is an application where the circuit interupter must work.  If you are willing to pay for high quality breakers like Heinemann, then you can have the convenience of some diagnostic abilities like being able to switch battery strings in and out of the buss network at will and take readings useful for an advanced battery maintenance program.  I don`t see the insertion loss of one versus the other as much of a consideration.
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Tom

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 05:04:55 AM »
The equalizing issues of batteries wired in parallel is why I chose 4 LARGE 12V batteries to wire in series.
Tom
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listerdiesel

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 07:19:52 AM »
Peter,

Are you aware of any resources on the internet that would be a good tutorial on this subject of parallelling batteries which you could share?

I don't recall seeing anything recently, most of this stuff is what you glean over the years from the battery manufacturers and hard experience.

Gates Energy were the first I recall having strong feelings about it, that was in the early 1980's with their Cyclon cells. Because they only made 2.5, 5, 7.5 and 25AH cells, a lot of people wanted higher capacity and went for parallel connection, but there were problems.

Steering diodes prevent discharge paths between cells or strings of cells in parallel, and typically you would have them both for discharge and charge current paths. Typically you would have one diode between the charging bus and each cell or string of cells, and one diode between the discharge bus and each cell or string of cells.

As the volt drop per diode is fairly constant once the diode is conducting, it is a relatively simple matter to allow for it on the charger settings and load.

Blocking diodes provide a one-way current path only and prevent back-feeding in the event of a fault.

The twin battery installation on our company website has each battery and charger feeding into a common cathode diode block (Semikron SKMD 160) with the commoned output going to the distribution baord bus.

Each charger is fused and fitted with a neutral link as well for full isolation if required, and each battery has dual fuses, so the protection is all there.

We changed the chargers and battery while the system was live, as it is part of the protection for a good part of North London, so hot working was in order.

With the twin battery installation, there is no standing load, the charger and batteries are purely standby, so no heatsinking was required for the diode block. We did mount it on a substantial frame section anyway, but the switching and closing pulses are very short, in the order of milliseconds, so the actual heat dissipation is quite small, although the current is high for that period.

There was another application we were involved in, which had hundreds of Lithium-Ion cells in series parallel for an underwater application, and that had 4 X 110V 50A chargers for the subsea vehicle. The battery supplier did all the interconnections, but it was a bit of a nightmare for them as the Li-Ion batteries also had special voltage sensing and control requirements.

Nicads can be treated in the same way, but as their self-discharge rates are higher than lead-acid, it can be more of a problem, particularly with the smaller sealed/wound cells. Vented cells are not as much of a problem but still need to be considered.

Diodes need to be rated for the maximum charge/discharge current, plus any peak loading that may be pulled through them on discharge. Thermal considerations can be critical if there is a continuous load current running through them. We work on 0.65V drop (less for Scottky Diodes) X the current to give dissipation. Heatsinking can be done relatively easily with extruded material and fans if necessary.

So, if you have 20A current going through a diode continuously, you will have approximately 13W of heat being dissipated. Get your heatsink charts and look at the thermal resistance (Deg C per Watt) and work out what you need.

When you get into the hundreds of amps then thermal considerations take a lot of sorting out, as the waste heat becomes quite serious, although the diodes are available these days up to 1000's of amps capacity.

We use Semikron / International Rectifier / Ixys product.

Dual diode modules with common cathode connection can be used with both diodes in parallel, but rate for a single diode. That gives you redundancy at almost the same cost of a single diode module which is probably more expensive than the more popular dual-diode type.

The standard Semipack type modules are industry-standard these days, and most of the heavier heatsinks come with mounting faces and slots to suit.

The main problems we see are that the smaller packs only have M5 connections for up to 100A, the next one has M6 and the largest standard module is M8. Getting a heavy cable bolted on can be a problem, so we use welding cable which is more flexible than conventional tri-rated and eases the strain on the module terminal.

Hockey-Puck modules are something else! :-))

Have to go off to the factory now,

Peter

listerdiesel

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 07:28:48 AM »
Yes that would be nice.....

I don;t know anyhting about the use of blocking diodes and steering diodes. Our banks are exclusivley 120vdc or 250 vdc series. This makes its own troubles especialy when a battery fails and we have to replace a new one in a used bank....

Doug

Single series-connected battery strings are not so much of a problem as far as steering diodes go, there is no need for them. We have a few sets in service, plus there is the 620V research installation with the Zebra battery.

Replacing a used battery in a string is a problem, as the internal resistance in the new battery will be lower than the older ones, and the capacity will be higher, so that battery or cell will not charge as quickly as the others and will then impose a slightly higher voltage on the rest as its terminal voltage remains below the others. Constant current charging is not an option in most UPS sets, so you cannot equalise the batteries in situ.

This happens a lot on the Nicad train batteries that we see, and in many cases we get the operators to try and match cells in a string by checking cell terminal voltages on charge AND discharge to try and get a cell set that has equal characteristics.

If you have a big enough installed base, then you can keep selected sets of used cells to use as replacements, but in many installations we see problems arising from battery or cell failure and a brand new replacement.

A lot of people don't realise how short a life some batteries have, particularly at elevated ambient temperatures.

The other problem is temperature compensation, or lack of it, on large battery sets.

Peter

rcavictim

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 03:13:15 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to share some useful information about battery installations.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

listerdiesel

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2007, 03:23:53 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to share some useful information about battery installations.

Glad to be of help to anyone who needs the info.

Sorry if it was a bit disjointed, things come to mind as you are typing, and you don't always get it out in sequence....

Peter

Stan

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Re: 12 volt battery bank
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2007, 04:51:22 PM »
tnx Peter...I've considered banking my CD technologies cells should I get the opportunity to "find" some more.  I've got 6, 2v cells in one bank now running my ham shack and pellet stove usually charged with solar.  Invaluable info, tnx.

I have had good luck equalizing them using a regular mains fed battery charger for the bank, while hooking up an individual cell to a solar driven charger.  No phase problems with that setup.  The CD technolgies cells must be equalized to 1/100th of a volt!  Very picky
Stan