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Author Topic: How to time the injection?  (Read 6167 times)

taeuber

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How to time the injection?
« on: February 25, 2007, 08:29:41 PM »
Hello!

Shortly I bought a JKSON 12/2 and disassembled it to
check for casting sand and to clean the dirty oil out.

After assembling it again I tried to start it.

On one cylinder this is no problem but on the second it
is nearly impossible. This simply doesn't want to ignite (detonate?)!

I run it on biodiesel.

From the second muffler only some white smoke leaves.
I'm not sure if this is from wrong compression, bad
nozzle (or dirty nozzle) or from wrong timing.

That's why I want to check everything and especially the timing.

After reading some english explainations I'm not much wiser than before.
I'm not a native english speaker. So I have my troubles.

Can someone of you explain me how I could change the timing?

I know I should adjust the tappet underneath the pump, but how?
Do I have to remove the pump therefore or the camshaft end cover?
How can I reach this tappet?
Do I have to screw the adjustment screw in or out for a later injection?

Many thanks and best greetings
Lars

binnie

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2007, 03:26:34 AM »
Hello Lars,
This problem has come up before on the forum. You are not alone. I am not sure if I am giving you the right information here. If not than you may do a search of the archives....some people use creative titiles for their problems that leave us in the dark when we try to find them later. Here is one that may help you. I have a 12/2 Jkson and have had no problems so far, but I know it can be frustrating whenever something goes wrong or won't work. Hope this is helpful...read through the thread. binnie
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=656.msg7912#msg7912
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

hotater

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2007, 02:45:59 PM »
Here's all I know about it-------
_______________________
We've all done it, and we've have had success at it, but we've probably done it 'differently'.

Let's talk about the 'spill timing' of the injector pump tappet.

I've had problems in the past with the tappet itself and had to make a new one at about 6000 hours. The symptoms of that were SO weird it took weeks to track it down to the tappet which had become 'self-adjusting' through worn out thread that would jump back and forth. I'll write that up separately.

Here's how Ive *finally* learned to do it.

"EXPERIENCE" Recognizing a mistake when you make it again.

It's handy to have a fuel supply shut-off with in reach. Also have a bucket and a pile of rags or paper towels to fill it with once they're soaked with fuel. Bleeding the fuel system is about as messy as bleeding a hog.

My parts book doesn't have the nomenclature of the fuel pump parts. I'm going to use 'metering valve', 'spring' and 'cap' for the three parts that comes off when loosened at the top. The 'spring' can be an escape artist.

Fuel lines have residual 'talcum' in them that prevents 'wetting' immediately. That's where the little bubbles come from. Fill a length of fuel hose with fuel and 'waller it around' (Southern descriptive term of twisting, turning, and flexing) Cap the ends with screws or thumbs. Slap it around some and allow the fuel to 'pre-wet' the line.

SET-UP--

From hard experience, FIRST check and then re-check and then *certify* the cam is in time with the engine. Don't assume the Indians did it right. And don't assume *you* did either!
Watch the intake tappet..it should start to lift at 5 deg. before TDC. Thats' about an inch BTDC on the rim of most 6-1 flywheels.

For this discussion I'm going to assume the engine is set up to run with oil in the crankcase, gib keys tight and flywheels 'rung' for soundness AND marked for Top Dead Center (TDC) with something easy to see.
Mark TDC on the outer AND inner rim of the flywheel so you know where it is when it's otherwise out of sight.

Measure the circumference of the flywheel and divide by 18. that's 20 degrees. Measure and mark 20 BEFORE TDC on the fly wheel. The mark will be to the 'right' of the TDC mark.
I use the throttle pivot bolt head as a reference point because it's close and handy and seems 'natural'. It's also the most dangerous one place on a Listeroid....it's a finger trap that will complicate your life. Watch out.

I use metal stamps to mark TDC and injector timing mark once I *know* it was right. I STRONGLY suggest using metal marking paint or other heavy duty, but not permanent marks to start with. It's astounding how easy it is to screw this job up!

GETTING STARTED--
Take the cap, spring and metering valve off the top of the fuel pump and loosen the banjo. Turn on the fuel and thump the lines until the fuel pouring out of the banjo is bubble-free. Tighten the banjo bolt and turn off the fuel so you can clean up what missed the rags placed to catch it. (gravity has a 'windage factor' when it comes to fuel.)

Remove the metering valve and it's spring, but put the cap back on.  This is IMPORTANT.  Without the cap in the innards aren't lined up right.
Now there's probably a 'mound' of fuel sitting on top of the that cap. Wipe it off until there's just a puddle in the middle. With the exhaust valve lifted and the fuel turned off at the tank but the throttle bar 'on' (down), rotate the flywheel clockwise, slowly and watch that fuel puddle. The puddle is responding to a plunger in the pump that's run by the fuel pump tappet underneath, which is lifted by the cam lobe.
GET THIS STRAIGHT-- the cam lobe only comes around once every TWO revolutions. The cam is half speed of the crank.
Rotate until the fuel puddle rises up and stop. Where is the TDC mark?

If the TDC mark is to the *left* when the fuel wells up you are *advanced* That's good. We want it 20 degrees advanced. Time to fine tune it.

If the TDC mark is to the *right* it means it's retarded and the tappet should be lowered about six full turns and try it again. Get it roughly 'advanced' and then go on to the next step.

TAPPET ADJUSTMENTS--
The tappet head and lock nut are about 7/8" and can be a tipping point for claustaphobics. I've found two little six inch Crescent (style) wrenches that will open up that far and are a life saver!

Turn on the fuel and rock the flywheel to the left until the fuel wells up and overflows the valve cap to replenish the fuel supply for timing and then turn off the fuel supply again.

Now, with the TDC mark at about nine O'clock and the correct TDC is the one coming up, (give the engine several revolutions to be sure where you are).

The fuel in the top of the metering valve cap should be stable as the flywheel is SLOWLY moved clockwise, but suddenly *begin* to rise up just as the 20 BTDC mark gets to the index. It's easy to rock the flywheel back and forth through this spot and adjust the tappet to make it sho-nuff right. It's MUCH easier to lower the tappet to make adjustments to it. It's hard to keep track of where you are when doing it, though. Expect to do a lot of flywheel turning. When the tappet is in the best position to adjust it the danged counterweights are in the way!

IMPORTANT--
The tappet CHANGES when the locking nut is tightened. BE sure the final timing check is with the locking nut tightened.

TESTING--

Now that the timing is set it's time to see how it changes...and it can.

Turn on the fuel supply, wrap a rag around the fuel pump and crank the engine through a dozen 'firing' strokes, but with the valve still lifted, and watch the top of the pump. There'll probably be a few bubbles at first then it'll settle down to making a mess with nothing but fuel. SLowly rotate the flywheel around and check the fuel spill in relation to the timing mark again. Still good?
Good.

FINISH--

Re-install the metering valve and it's spring and tighten the cap. Be sure all surfaces are clean before tightening. Rotate the engine through several times with the fuel valve 'on'. It should squirt fuel and a few bubbles at first, but clear up after half a dozen firings.
Now attach the high pressure line at the bottom but leave the top undone from the injector. Line everything up so the bottom is tight in the final position but the top is about a quarter inch from the injector.

Here's the place where an energetic kid is really handy...as long as you don't have to feed him.

Crank the engine until fuel spurts from the end of the high pressure line. At first (just after the coronary starts, usually), there'll be bubbles in the fuel. Rap the line with something to break them loose faster and keep turning (or urging on the urchin) until the spurt is clear fuel.

WHILE STILL TURNING, tighten the top connector to the fuel injector. You should hear the odd mettalic cricket of the injector firing after about no more than more four turns of the crank.

IF you still have the energy to release the valve lifter after the third 'tink' you should be rewarded with smoke and the SWEETEST noise....

If not---- Just stop and try to figure out where YOU went wrong.

Cam timing is the FIRST step in trouble-shooting!!!!

If you hear the injector AND you have compression AND the engine doesn't start. The TIMING is off. PERIOD.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

rmchambers

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2007, 04:04:29 PM »
I don't believe I've ever read a more concise and descriptive how-to of timing on one of these beasts.

Hats off to ya.

retardo

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007, 04:26:55 PM »
Hotater, That is just about the purest truth I have ever read!

Everyone on this forum should google "hotater", and read very carefully every crumb hotater has written. There are many nuggets for true DIYers. 

Are you still visiting that cute waitress in Rogerson? (yes, i heard the rumor)

Candid opinions provided by Retardo Mentalbum.


 

Tom

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 06:13:30 PM »
Thanks Hoater, even though I've done this before that description is a keeper to review before the next time.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

lendusaquid

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 07:56:49 PM »
That was a godsend.
I have been struggling for ages to get my timing right.When i remove the valve and spring loads of fuel comes out nomatter where the flywheel is .
I must ask what sort of gap have you got between the pump and the adjusting bolt?

taeuber

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2007, 08:22:26 PM »
Thank you very much hotater.

Just one silly question left:

To adjust the tappet I have to remove the pump from its socket on the camshaft end cover, don't I?
I haven't had the heart to touch the screws that hold the pump in it's position.

Best regards
Lars

hotater

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 11:44:40 PM »
Thanks all !  I appreciate it.

lendusequid---  There is no gap.  Turn the fuel valve off while you're messing with it.  All you need is that bubble in the top to watch.

taeuber---  The fuel pump tappet has a bolt threaded into the top of it.  Look in the 'window' below the fuel pump and you'll see one large nut....look above it and you'll see the head of the bolt.   Use short wrenches to loosen the lock nut...the bottom one, and then turn the bolt clockwise, looking down on it, to retard the timing and turn it 'out' or counter clockwise to advance the timing.

There's NO reason to be scared to pull the pump off the mount.  It simply sits in place and then two studs hold it down, but timing can be done without removing the pump.
 
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

lendusaquid

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2007, 11:31:03 PM »
Thats strange because when my pump tappet is down there is a 1/8 inch gap between the tappet and the base of the pump.Could me putting the pump back together wrong have an effect on the timing?

hotater

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 12:11:24 AM »
lendusaquid---

The pump plunger should be hard down against an internal snap ring when off the engine and slightly compressed when the fuel tappet is all the way down.  There is no time when the tappet doesn't touch the plunger.......at least not on my two engines.

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

OffGrid

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Re: How to time the injection?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2007, 03:45:15 AM »
Thanks for the fine explanation on timing  Hotater!

 I think Mr. Lister himself would proud to read that. Yea done good!
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