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Author Topic: Newbie looking for reccomendations  (Read 6565 times)

carlb23

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Newbie looking for reccomendations
« on: February 22, 2007, 01:42:52 PM »
Hi,

My name is Carl and I am a total newbie to this forum and to slow speed gensets in general.  I have been reading this forum for about a month now and I am ready to start planning out my generator. I am intrigued by the Lister type engines and think they are very cool.

I would love to do a Lister type genset but I don’t know if it is really feasible and had a few questions I wanted to ask.

We live on grid and have a grid tied 7kWh solar array and a 1.8kWh Skystream wind turbine (these produce all of the electricity we need plus about 1.5mWh surplus each year that we sell back to the utility) . Both of these only run when the grid is up due to UL regulations.  We only have power failures once or twice a year at most, and normally less than 8 hours each time.
I have been working of gas race engines for over 30 years so I know my way around an engine, I have a background in electronics so neither of those issues are a problem with maintenance or installation.  I also do welding but my machining skills are not great.

Based on the above information I am looking for recommendations for a backup / standby genset.

I love the simplicity (and idea)of the Lister / St combination and if I go that route I would also have to add a Transfer switch to connect to my mains. Thinking of a 6/1 with 3 or 4kw ST type generator

I also like  packaged natural gas fired Generac type automatic standby generators but I know their life span is pretty short (no muss no fuss ).

I guess lastly a portable gas or diesel generator connected to a transfer switch would work also.

We do not have any batteries so we would only run the genset to power the house when the grid is down.

I suspect we could run all of our necessary loads with a 3 to 4kw generator

Any input from you guys would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,


Carl.

binnie

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 02:54:34 PM »
Hi Carl,
Welcome to the nut house.
Wouldn't it make sence to utilize your present set up with a battery bank to draw on for the 8 or so hrs you are off grid...instead of the gen. set? Just a thought.
Would love to see picts of your present solar system. I am planning to go that route in the future to cut the run time on my Gen set & prolong the life (usefulness) of the Lister.
We all have our reasoning for buying one of these monsters and "cool" ranks high on the list. I love it.  binnie


Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

carlb23

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 03:42:13 PM »
Below is a link with a picture of my house. It has been featured in several publications including November 2006 Popular Science.
In the picuture you can see the solar array as well as the wind turbine. What you cant see is the original solar hot air pannel  or the new solar hot air panel that was constructed after that photo.  magazine.
Since my solar array is connected in 5 strings of 10 panels each in series, the DC voltage is around 270 @ 7.5 amps.  This is not the ideal situation for battery charging.  I suspect i could install an outback inverter with a battery charger and battery bank and charge from the grid which is still comming from my solar and wind but thats the long way around, and between the batteries and the inverter i suspect i would have a lot more invested than in a gen set and still not have the "cool" factor.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/oct06/4661

Ironworks

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 06:12:23 PM »
Hi Carl

Welcome to the forum.  I am impressed with your set up and I have to admit it has sparked an interest.  What kind of investment do you have in your set up?  I have to agree with Binnie, with what you have, batteries seem like a good back up.  Having said that, I suspect you are after the cool factor as many of us are.  The only problem with 3 to 4 KW's is well pump starting and air conditioners.  If you can work around that then 3-4 kw's should work fine.  I have heard of soft start kits for motors on well pumps.  I don't how people are getting around AC.  I have a few window units I use but haven't tried them on the genset. 

carlb23

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 07:12:53 PM »
Ironworks,

We don't have a whole lot of money invested in our setup since when we installed the Solar the State of New Jersey put up 70% of the installed cost.  That being said the installed cost was about 46,000 dollars and our part of it was 13,000 dollars.  Our solar produces about 9mWh a year of energy or about 1300 dollars worth.  We also generate Solar Renewable Credits (9 per year) which

we sell back to  the utilities through a broker and we get about $240 to $260 per credit.  With the no electric bill and the selling of the credits we have a positive cash flow of about 3,500 dollars a year. The solar array is just over 2 years old and will pay itself off in 1.5 more years (sooner if the price of energy goes up).

The wind turbine was a beta test program that i was involved with with the Manufacture so most of my cost was the concrete base and the wiring. The turbine works great but i wish we had more wind.  The turbine is self contained and outputs 240VAC 1phase directly to my panel box.  It has wireless communication and all of the data is logged on my laptop.

We do not have a well pump and I am sure that it will not start my 3.5 ton central airconditioner but most of our power problems are in th winter.

Are you connected to the grid and if so why did you put in a gen set?

I have to believe that a larg enough battery bank would be quite a bit more that a backup gen set.

peterako

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 08:14:10 PM »
For your setup using batterys is a waste of money.
if you want to cover a small blackout than any diesel genset will help to keep your house running.
dont use gas/bezine generators the caborator will be blocked by the time you need it.

Great photo. ;)

i am working to finish my house but here in Greece there is zero support from the goverment so i pay 100% :'(

Greetings from Greece
lovson 6/1 DI backup for my new house using solar heating and power plus a 1000W wind generator.

binnie

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 09:50:35 PM »
Typical of a Gov't instigated programme to buy back your power generated from your capital  investment at wholesale price & then sell it back to you at Retail.....and to leave you in the dark when they can't deliver.
 You would think that there would/could be a provisional  switch on the system to disconect from the grid when it goes down and operate the system as a survival back up. You already are generating more than you need. I supose incorporating that kind of a switch would null & void your present contract along with your insurance co. Coverage! (Was there an incentive offered to do this installation?)
Wonder who's welfare they are thinking about? Don't you feel your being used....just a little? Enlighten us pls.
I would be tempted to go off the grid & use the system you have to run the place & get a generator for back up of your own down time.   Just another thought..binnie.
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

carlb23

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 10:12:45 PM »
They don't back back all of my power just what i haven't used at the end of the year and yes they buy it back at wholesale but we also use a heat pump to help heat our house and I make sure there is no leftover power to sell them at the end of the year.  As far as being able to disconnect from the grid there are inverters out there that allow for that but you must also run a battery backup with this type of system because if your solar array is generating more then you are using the inverters will burn up. 

We only sell the energy company the right to say they made the energy in the SREC program not the actual energy.  You see they have to make a certain amount of their energy from renewable sources.  So if they buy the right to say they made it then they have made renewable energy. 

binnie

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 10:43:40 PM »
Are you telling us that you receive only one bill a year from your grid supplier and that could be a credit? binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

carlb23

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 10:51:26 PM »
I do receive a bill every month from my grid supplier and on that bill they list the meter readings which are usually going backwards because we generate more than we use except in december and january but since we have accumulated excess kWh we are just billed $2.40 per month customer charge.  Our anniversity month is March so we even up every March 31.  I usually pay them about 10.00 dollars for march since we burn up all of our excess in Feburary and March using our heat pump to heat the house

binnie

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 02:25:54 AM »
Whow!
I take back all the little "nasties" I said about your programme. It sounds like you are almost home free from grid charges & only a year and 1/2 to break even point. Not a bad set up at all.
If you are considering a Listeroid for back up "if,as & when" the grid goes down occasionally....not a bad idea either.
Should you be looking ahead to WTSHTF and you want/need to incorporate your present set up with a potential to run your whole house for a longer time period...you have another cost expenditure to consider with the inverters, batteries, etc. or you might want to consider investing now in a larger than a 6/1 lister & gen head  for future potential & peace of mind.
With your expertise in electricity you are well placed to convert the system you have one day to your own use, if need be.
Enjoyed your article, never seen a stand alone wind set that high without guide cables before.
Keep us posted on your decisions, the reasoning behind them and your progress. We all love listers. binnie (thanks for the input & the article).
 
 
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Ironworks

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 06:57:19 AM »
Ironworks,

We don't have a whole lot of money invested in our setup since when we installed the Solar the State of New Jersey put up 70% of the installed cost.  That being said the installed cost was about 46,000 dollars and our part of it was 13,000 dollars.  Our solar produces about 9mWh a year of energy or about 1300 dollars worth.  We also generate Solar Renewable Credits (9 per year) which

we sell back to  the utilities through a broker and we get about $240 to $260 per credit.  With the no electric bill and the selling of the credits we have a positive cash flow of about 3,500 dollars a year. The solar array is just over 2 years old and will pay itself off in 1.5 more years (sooner if the price of energy goes up).

The wind turbine was a beta test program that i was involved with with the Manufacture so most of my cost was the concrete base and the wiring. The turbine works great but i wish we had more wind.  The turbine is self contained and outputs 240VAC 1phase directly to my panel box.  It has wireless communication and all of the data is logged on my laptop.

We do not have a well pump and I am sure that it will not start my 3.5 ton central airconditioner but most of our power problems are in th winter.

Are you connected to the grid and if so why did you put in a gen set?

I have to believe that a larg enough battery bank would be quite a bit more that a backup gen set.


Wow impressive.  Yes I am connected to the grid.  My power bill was only $35.00 a month. Every light bulb in my house is energy efficient.   It has recently doubled to $70.00 due to de-regulation.  However my propane averages about $1800 a year.  I initially set up a genset to try and capture exhaust heat to assist with heating costs.  This is still in the works.  I'm not sure what battery banks go for so I must admit I'm not really educated enough on that topic to make a reasonable statement about it.  So far I have $1250 in my genset.  That includes engine and 6.5 KW generator.  I purchased mostly for the cool factor.  I also have two other vintage diesel engines, it's a compulsive addiction.  I looked into wind generation a few years ago.  We too have assistance for the purchase of wind generators but I think I would have a hard getting permission from the township to have it installed.  They tend to frown on things that make noise all night long.  I suppose I should at least try and see if it would fly.  Do you have any points of contact to get started?

carlb23

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Re: Newbie looking for reccomendations
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2007, 11:54:14 AM »

Wow impressive.  Yes I am connected to the grid.  My power bill was only $35.00 a month. Every light bulb in my house is energy efficient.   It has recently doubled to $70.00 due to de-regulation.  However my propane averages about $1800 a year.  I initially set up a genset to try and capture exhaust heat to assist with heating costs.  This is still in the works.  I'm not sure what battery banks go for so I must admit I'm not really educated enough on that topic to make a reasonable statement about it.  So far I have $1250 in my genset.  That includes engine and 6.5 KW generator.  I purchased mostly for the cool factor.  I also have two other vintage diesel engines, it's a compulsive addiction.  I looked into wind generation a few years ago.  We too have assistance for the purchase of wind generators but I think I would have a hard getting permission from the township to have it installed.  They tend to frown on things that make noise all night long.  I suppose I should at least try and see if it would fly.  Do you have any points of contact to get started?
[/quote

You can contact SouthWest Wind Products in Flagstaff AZ for and they will send you info on the Wind Turbine  it is rated at 1.8kWh @18mph winds and works very well.  If you have good wind this turbine will work well for you (remember it is grid tied and will not work when the grid is down).  The solar panels and inverters are made by Sharp.

carl