Author Topic: fuel economy question  (Read 12863 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 04:40:13 AM »
theboss:

ok 3-6kwatt

how many hours a day total run time anticipated?

how many hours at 3kwatt?
how many hours at 6 kwatt?

can you reduce comsumption?
can you schedule some, part or all of your heavy loads

have you done an analysis of your projected kwatt/hr needs?

the main reason i ask these questions come down to what it will take to effectively size your genset

without any concern for conservation, and without regard to any scheduling,, you might find you need 25 plus kwatt of genset to cover
your loads, vs with heavy conservation and meticulous scheduling you might get by quite nicely with 2.5 kwatt in genset capacity.

you success at conserveing and scheduleing will determine which end of the scale you will fit in.

other factors are run times,
if you incorporate a battery bank and an inverter, you might be able to run the genset as little as a couple of hours per day as opposed to 16-25 hrs per day
depending on how well designed your system will determine where on this scale  you fit in.

ben franklin had a saying "a penny saved is a penny earned" (which is more like a penny saved is a nickle earned today)
this holds true of generating your own power.

the problem as i see it with trying to base a system on one parameter, (engine efficiency) is problematic.

i assert that you really need to look at the whole project as a complete system, and then work to improve efficiency of the overall system.
when you start to think through the processes of the complete system it will become apparent that perhaps an engine that is a percent or two
more fuel efficient might not fair as well in the total system efficiency for various reasons.

an example

system A:

engine uses 1 pint of fuel to run one hour and produce 1 kwatt of electrical power, this power is used to charge the battery bank for use
during the rest of the day. to charge the batteries using a high capacity automotive alternator you find it takes 4 hours to charge the batteries
total fuel used 4 pints

system B:

engine uses 1.5 pints of fuel to run one hour and produce 1 kwatt of power, this power is used to charge the battery bank for use during the rest of
the day. to charge the batteries using the same alternator but replaceing the automotive regulator with a smart controller and an efficient charge regime
you find that it takes only 2 hours per day to charge the batteries.
total fuel used 3 pints

now this example though exagerated for purposes of illustration (you wont find anywhere near this disparity in comsumption in the real world) clearly shows
the importance of other element of the overall system.

and this is only one part of many in determining the answer to your question.

perhaps i need to work on developing a questionaire form that has a scoring system, which would aid in getting an answer to what and why.

questions such as (on a scale of 1-10)

1. can you schedule none, some, part or all of your heavy loads (score 1 for none, 3 for some, 6 for part, and 10 for all)

2. do you anticipate using batteries, or are you comfortable maintaining batteries  ( no batteries 1,  uncomfortable 3, comfortable 6, yes i want them 10)

3. are you mechanically inclined? ( score 1 for not at all, score 3 for somewhat capable, score 6 for accomplished DIY guy, score 10 for mechanic, electrician etc)

4. do you want a system that is fully automated, electric start etc?  (score 1 for fully automated, score 3 for some auto controls, score 6 for mostly controlled, score 10 for no controls, i will do it myself)

5. are you grid or offgrid (score 1 for ongrid and backup power only, score 3 for grid and some regular power, score 6 for most power from genset, score 10 for offgrid)

etc etc.

might be a 100 question form,, but the results of which would likely show clearly what type of equipment is suitable for the user
and it would illustrate to the user area's where he might make some changes in lifestyle, education, time management, scheduling etc. might skew his result
to something more in line with what he thinks he wants.

might be an interesting project

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 06:11:54 AM »
theboss:

i thought i might add that my responces are not meant to be trite, but rather some rambling thinking on my part

probably the correct answer to your question is there is not correct answer.

depending on many variables either engine could be shown to have an advantage

this probably doesnt help much huh?

bob g
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theboss

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 12:29:28 PM »
the gen set will run all day long during summer, with 1hour downtime for maintainence and checkups. It will power 2x1.5 ton air cons plus regular stuff like lightning, computer, tv, blah blah blah...Most of the run time will be during night..so to provide comfortable sleep under aircon in summer night...Grid power during summer is really a luxry here. It keeps dodging, the downtimes run higher than up times. Basically, your life comes to halt if you don't have a genset.

Power consumption may average around 6-8 kw.. hence the safe side gen head size of 10Kw.

The charade engine will be clocked at 1150-1200 rpm. This engine model has a world record of 103mpg but in reality its give 60-70mpg in city driving. And produces all of its torque at low end..good for hauling genset loads.

The fuel system is direct injection compared to listeriod carb..

and don't suggest me batteries...its a total junk idea for me due to cost of batteries, they are extremely expensive around here, secondly they wont run AC. Thirdly I have a massive bank of batteries sitting as an expensive paper weight. They do lightning ok, but thats about them.

Well i am very mechanically inclined and can learn to fix anything with little will, research and literature..so back to my simplistic question, which engine logically appeals as more fuel efficient???

For me fuel efficiency is more important than engine lifetime. Because im lifting engine from the junk where they cost me pennies.. but fuel cost dollars!!!

So its cheaper for me to replace / rebuild engine every year due to cheap labour and parts compared to burn 6 gallon of diesel. 6 gallon being the estimated fuel consumption of listeriod for 20 hours run time @ 0.3gal/hour.

As a matter of fact, i have added another engine to list..beliving it may provide better fuel efficiency that the charade.

Its a local made licensed replica of Perkins AD3.152 engine used in tractors. Known for its rock solid reliability.

Displacement: 2500cc
Cylinder: 3
Compression Ratio: 23.5:1
Peak Tq: 138@1300rpm
Peak Hp: 46@2250

I think, the larger the displacement per cylinder, the lower it will rev.. and under loading of an engine by factor of 1/2 improves fuel efficiency twice..plus longevity 4 times. Somewhere in my mind says that a high displacement high torque low hp engine will be more fuel efficient when underloaded.

Ya see guys, im in totally difference boat than you are...and for me..feasibility of this project boils down to fuel efficiency of an engine.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:49:34 PM by theboss »

mobile_bob

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 04:07:10 PM »
theboss:

given the answers
i would go with the perkins for a couple of reasons
at 1300rpm you should have an easy 15kwatt of power available
the engine is made for long hours, and is probably better suited to genset use
the govenor is probably a constant speed instead of a variable speed (automotive)

is the perkins idi or di ?
if idi it is probably more tolerant of alternate fuels

bob g
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(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

SCOTT

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 04:24:15 PM »
The boss

Where are these perkins clones avaliable?  Is there a web site with specs and prices?


Scott
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 05:39:08 PM by SCOTT »
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

peterako

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2007, 06:16:05 PM »
The Boss:

If you do not mind to replace the engine and it is cheap why wait ;)

But please do think about the advice from the forum also considere that a diesel not running underfull load or underloaded start blocking the rings and injection.
Also there are direct inction listers like little giant from lovson or others. and you can order electrical starting charging , water pump cooling and steel frame.

I used to drive the car it wash my first car and i replaced three times the engine, but it still has a warm place in my heart ;).
I can buy the engines used here in Athens for around 100-150 Euro. but again it is not for full time use.
Also there is not speed control to keep your voltage freq. under control

For a battery bank to power your house dont use car batterys but use special design yes expensive solar batterys but the lifetime is between 10 - 30 years.

Running a AC from a generator at night is not a easy solution the change in speed by differnt loading you can hear on your AC. :o Good night. But maybe after changing again the engine you sleep  in any noise. ;D

In my erea where backup or full time generator power is requird. Every body hearing my Listeriod running and smelling.( i am running 50% used vegt. oil) want to place also a lister.

Greetings From Greece

P.S. you must use any engine that you can control install and pay, but please dont compare a slow speed diesel with a high speed diesel.
lovson 6/1 DI backup for my new house using solar heating and power plus a 1000W wind generator.

theboss

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2007, 09:19:05 PM »
The boss

Where are these perkins clones avaliable?  Is there a web site with specs and prices?


Scott

they are made local Massey-Ferguson tractor assembler. www.millat.com.pk
major parts like castings, pistons, rings, crank are local but techy parts like fuel injection, electronic, blah blah are imported..

The specs are not available online but you can dig out the desired MF tractor, check out what engine its using by the data sheet..and lookup on Perkins.com for engine specs..I dont know the prices for new ones but junk yard salvage can run for $400-$500 depending on condition. But be aware they atr Perkins tier one engines sold in 3rd world countries free of EPA emission regulations..the upside..no computer to go wrong..fuel efficient, simple to fix.

Below is the link to tractor data sheet including engine specs. My pick is MF240
http://primeupload.com/file/64901/MF200SpecEN.pdf.html

so guys is my approach logical that my shortlisted engines will be more or equal in fuel efficiency with listeriod??at least in theory??? Honestly i cant afford a fuel bill more than 1 Litre/hour, that is 0.3 galUS/hour

I am not anti lister but sorry to say the only listers available to me are Chinese ones where you get your money's worth of cracked casting dipped in paint..

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 09:29:58 PM by theboss »

mobile_bob

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2007, 09:37:51 PM »
theboss:

i don't mean to be a wet blanket on your plan
but i dont think you will find any diesel that will deliver your needed kwatt/hr on so little fuel
i would have to look it up but i think that most diesels come really close to
1# of fuel for each kwatt/hr produced, you are asking for 6-8 kwatt of power so you will be very close to one gallon an hour
on most any engine, or so i think

perhaps there is someone with the exact numbers for a listeroid, i would expect it to be about as efficient an engine you are
likely going to get and the others are likely to be within a percentage point or two .

lets see what others have to say
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

JohnF13

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2007, 11:01:30 PM »
Just an observational answer mainly because it's not a big concern to me as I use WVO, my 6/1 when drawing between 2 and 3kw uses about 1/2 litre/hr.  My 20/2 drawing anywhere between 4 and 8 kw seems to use the same amount of fuel - about 2 litres/hr.  That second figure could well be wrong, I just judge it by the amount of fuel I go through in 24 hours.  I don't think I could find any other engine that would give me those figures - especially for the 6/1.

I'm thinking of getting a refurb'd 6.2 GM and giving that a try - will be way more power than I need, but i might be able to de-rate it somewhat.  One of the unpacked toys I have here is a Hercules multi-fuel engine (from an army deuce and an half) that I want to run a 30kw head with.  Again, far too much power, but you gotta experiment!
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

gpkull

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2007, 11:41:11 PM »
i know of a 12/1 running 3 + hours with 5k steady on a gallon of mix.  hyd. oil, veggie, and dino.  the 5k  would go up when well pump kicked on and others for a short spell.  this is powerline 1000 rpm with a 12k head belt driven

mobile_bob

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2007, 02:52:28 AM »
gpkull:

i would like to see the particulars of his fuel mix :)

and some reference to his actual fuel consumption on this mix

i suppose you could account for some increase in output from the higher btu content of the
fuel mix,, but 1/3 gallon an hour at 5kwatt generated seems pretty damn good, maybe too good?

bob g
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mactoollover2005

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2007, 04:27:32 AM »
 Hi JohnF
            Planning to use the 6.2 to run the 30kw gen will be interesting.i know that the engine uses about 165 liters in a 8 hour period when used in a 2.5 ton military truck (mlvw m35-m36) going down the road at 3100-3200 rpm.
 Now if you were to rduce the rpm to 1200 for starters and use a pully and belt system to drive the gen head then it will be a heck of lot better for fuel economy as for guessing how much better?? i dont know but i wish u luck
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

M61hops

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2007, 08:10:38 AM »
My opinion is that IF you dial it in for the job, all engines will be within a few % of each other for fuel effiecency. Conventional wisdom has it that a diesel will be the most efficient and last the longest if run at about 80% of its max rated power.  The Dihatsu and Perkins clone would probably be under loaded and/or out of their most efficient loading.  For me it would be pretty much a toss up between trying to dial in the Dihatsu which would be a little iffy or adding a starter and a water pump to a Lister(oid).  If you could get some free fuel like WMO or WVO that would tip the choice heavily towards a Lister(oid).
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

theboss

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2007, 07:07:25 PM »
here..i found another Perkins engine for the job..let me know what ya guys think..dunno if this one is also cloned locally..haven't researched it yet...

http://primeupload.com/file/65292/402C-05-Engine--PN1774-75th-.pdf.html

some please answer my question in plain yes and no

Do compression ratios affect fuel efficiency??

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 07:43:56 PM by theboss »

theboss

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Re: fuel economy question
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2007, 11:12:07 PM »
Well im comparing here between

18.5:1 > Some perkins in MF tractors - 2500cc
17.5:1 > Listeriod - 1433 cc
21.5:1 > Daihatsu Cl10 from Charade - 1000cc
23.5:1 > Perkins Model: 402C-050 - 510cc