Author Topic: Ethanol fuel in 6/1  (Read 13605 times)

Ironworks

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2007, 05:47:06 PM »
I received pretty much the same greeting when I first posted here and I have to say I was tempted to forget about this website. I was very interested in the engine so I stuck around to gain as much knowledge as I could.  There is a clique here and they all know who they are and they tend to oppose much of what outsiders say and bash them.  It's tolerated by who ever runs this thing.  I would advise if you are seriously interested in the engine, to stick around.  If someone wants to show their behavioral ignorance, let them.  It's only black words on a white screen.  It only carry's as much weight as you let it.  You can learn alot here if you wade through all the crap thats being shoveled and flung everywhere.  I admit this is probably the worst behaved forum I have come across and having said that I am not leaving because the free knowledge is too valuable.

rocket

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2007, 07:23:59 PM »
i think the newbie asking the questions should go elsewhere if his feelings are so easily hurt.... i was not rude or crude ... i did not call him an idiot or anything of the like... i simply answered his question in an honest manner... in an hour your nice new 6/1 will be in need of serious repair.

if you dont like the answer.. if you feel that is being rude... then call me a jerk and fire up your engine

mactoollover2005

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2007, 11:24:34 PM »
 i dont think its being rude to tell some one that asked a question the answer. these engines from india are not bad for the $ paid for them, but are not anywhere near the quality of north american gennies but unfortunately n, american gennies are made to scream. driven by manufacturers greed for $$ in parts and the wearing out of engines and excessive use of fuel. thats why most people put up with the low quality if indian products 1) lower Purchase$ 2) simpler designs 3) easier repairs for the most part 4)lower RPM,s  5) less fuel used 6) sounds a heck of a lot better than a screamer 7) and many other different reasons for each  and every other person..
Besides,,, where can u have a 3-22 hp engine and not worry about someone running off with your engine during a power failure when your back is turned ;D
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

kd7zrs

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2007, 01:50:47 AM »
Well, what do you know.  There are some serious thinkers on this forum.  After I posted my question the first two answers weren't answers at all.  One wanted to trade and the other said my engine would run rough and then self-distruct.  He didn't say why.  I believe that problems can be overcome and as I gleaned from the other posts the 6/1 can run on ethonal (which is alcohol not gasoline) but the cost is probably prohibitive.  I would probably go through many engines and still end up running on diesel.  I live in rural Arizona on 40 acres off the grid.  We live in a camp trailer and are building a stick built house.  We had the concrete work done and I am doing the rest.  The garage/wood shop (28x48) is completed and the roof is on the 2200 sq/ft house.  I've started on the wiring and the plumbing is next.  After 66 years I still believe in doing it yourself.  I'm still learning and will continue to read this forum because there are some serious thinkers and problem solvers here. Nuf said.

Ironworks

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2007, 02:38:28 AM »
Let me be the first to properly welcome you to the forum.  Hang in there you'l learn alot.  I admire what you are doing.  I have often wanted to do the same.  I lived in Phoenix for a while and saw how cheap the desert land was away from the valley.  I had an inclination to do what you are doing.  BUt things changed and I had to move.  Good luck with your projects.

rmchambers

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2007, 04:25:33 AM »
I was just out in Arizona this past weekend, then come from 70F weather back to the east coast to 10f with a 30kt wind.  Brrr...

Anyway, I think what you'll find on this forum is a TYPE of person that is into self sufficiency, self reliant, able to fix things themselves or make stuff, and NOT being the sort to rely on others.  Those type of folk tend to have opinions and those opinions are held pretty strongly.  Stubborn might even be a good word to describe them (us).

I started on this board a while back (back when the membership was 600 or so) and I've learned so much more than I've put into the discussions.

The folk here are from all walks of life (some very interesting walks I should add) and all can draw on experience.

I wouldn't look too much into what you're thinking as people being rude rather than people wanting to know more about what you're doing before rendering an opinion.

I say welcome to the group, stick around, pull up a chair, you'll never leave!

Robert

Dail R H

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2007, 06:04:50 AM »
   He shoulda got here 'fore Guy left!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;DUH OH,Dail runnin for cover

rmchambers

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2007, 01:31:40 PM »
I wonder what Guy is up to these days, wonder if the milk float SOM is powering itself around the neighborhood yet.

rcavictim

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2007, 03:13:58 PM »
Well, what do you know.  There are some serious thinkers on this forum.  After I posted my question the first two answers weren't answers at all.  One wanted to trade and the other said my engine would run rough and then self-distruct.  He didn't say why.  I believe that problems can be overcome and as I gleaned from the other posts the 6/1 can run on ethonal (which is alcohol not gasoline) but the cost is probably prohibitive.  I would probably go through many engines and still end up running on diesel.  I live in rural Arizona on 40 acres off the grid.  We live in a camp trailer and are building a stick built house.  We had the concrete work done and I am doing the rest.  The garage/wood shop (28x48) is completed and the roof is on the 2200 sq/ft house.  I've started on the wiring and the plumbing is next.  After 66 years I still believe in doing it yourself.  I'm still learning and will continue to read this forum because there are some serious thinkers and problem solvers here. Nuf said.

kd,

You sound like the kind of DIYer who will like it here.  Welcome!  I am curious, what does one apparently isolated  like you do to get an internet connection?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dualĀ  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2007, 03:53:50 PM »
  My 2 cents.  I have also considered doing something similar with methane.  Essentially you would have a heavy ruggedly built engine that you would convert to a carbureted, spark ignition engine.  You could take advantage of the long term durability and high compression of the listeroid, just switch from compression ignition to spark ignition.  A DI head would be better than an IDI head.   Just substitute a spark plug for the injector and a timed ignition source for the IP.  Connect the governor linkage to the carb throttle.  With a carb the problems of no lube for an IP go away.  Also could use the IP cam to activate a trigger for the ignition, just need to provide some way to adjust timing. 
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

dkwflight

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2007, 10:38:43 PM »
Hi
My comments have been along the lines of keeping the lister type engine as an injected diesel.
 For the price of an injecter and pump ( fairly cheap) you could do the experiment.

Ethanol should mix with used veggie oil fine. By diluting the veg oil you should have less injection problems. The guys burning straight veggie oil have to heat their injecter lines to sucessfully run this stuff.

I would start with a 50-50m mix of alchol and veggie oil. Filter it all well and run the engine.

As in earlier posts run the engine hard and hot.

I think this is a worthy experiment. Do it.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

ZackaryMac

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2007, 02:13:06 AM »
My own curiosity makes me question the value of ethanol in a diesel, and though I know little of it, I believe it would have much more octane value than centane. Less centane value would not be an efficient move to diesel operation., notwithstanding the lack of lubricity for the pump.

Am I somewhat correct in this thought, or further out in left field than usual? ;D
Kubota EL300A-R 4hp 12v Generator
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Onan RDJA 8hp
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All are diesel.

Doug

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2007, 03:07:54 AM »
I dunno, I find I run best on scotch and save the petroleum products for my toys....

DOug

Tom

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2007, 04:26:35 AM »
Just mix 25% ethanol with vegie oil and add a little lye. drain off the glop that settles to the bottom and your good to go. ;)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

mobile_bob

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2007, 06:41:08 AM »
i personally see absolutely no reason that alcohol could not be used in one of these engines in a dual fuel mode
the octane rating of alcohol is sufficiently high that it will not preignite or detonate, however
i would not suggest injecting it through the diesel injector, i would keep that as the pilot fuel source

if you either carburated the alcohol in or setup another injector to admit it into the intake stream it will not destroy the engine.
the power density of a typical listeroid is so low, and the combustion temps are also relatively low, coupled with alcohols ability to refrigerate
i cannot see how you will burn a piston using it.

a loss of power is likely however because the alcohol will displace oxygen in the intake charge, and also the btu content of alcohol is about 1/2 that
of diesel fuel.. so some loss of power will result.

on the up side you should have a very clean burning engine without the need to decarbon i would think.

i would suspect you could replace as much as 75% of the diesel injected and still have an engine that runs reliably, albeit at a lower power level.

some timing changes might be in order to optimize the power, only some testing would show how much change results in how much power is gained.
might not be worth the effort to alter timing, i don't know.

if you admit a gaseous fuel into the intake the engine will try to increase rpm, at which point the govenor will decrease the amount of diesel injected up to
a point at which the engine will not run smoothly

how you regulate the alcohol injection will determine the complexity of the design, changing loads will also increase the complexity of the design.

btw,, welcome aboard.. and ...
you are responsible for your own bandaids, gloves and cutman :)
sometimes the dialog gets pretty pointed, and we just like brothers in a family, can mix up a fight with the best of them.
thats part of the fun, and even in a fight we all learn a bit, between the rounds.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info