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Author Topic: Ethanol fuel in 6/1  (Read 13594 times)

kd7zrs

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Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« on: February 19, 2007, 03:50:58 AM »
I have a 6/1 indirect injected engine and am considering running straight ethanol (160 to 190 proof).  Is this possible and what are the ill effects if any?  If it is possible what would need to be done to make it happen? Thanks for the input.  Ed

draganof

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2007, 04:04:37 AM »
I thought a 6/1 was a diesel? I have a 10hp Kohler I'll trade you even for your 6/1! My Kohler will love that GASOLINE!
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

rocket

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2007, 04:49:18 AM »
lister cs engines are very heavy duty and i am thinking it will run rough for close to an hour before you have destroyed it

kd7zrs

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2007, 01:07:03 AM »
I asked serious questions but all I get are stupid comebacks.  Some of you people seem to be real good at that. I'll not be posting anymore questions.

Doug

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2007, 01:29:13 AM »
Take a deep breath and relax newbie....

I don't think you will have much luck running a IDI 6/1 on Ethanol. IDI engines are good for burning oils but DI engines are better suited to diesel pilot ignition of gasses and vapours....

You might be out of luck, but you may be able to run a carb and displace as much as 10-20% of your diesel.

Only way to know for sure is try.

Doug

dkwflight

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2007, 02:43:38 AM »
Hi
Almost every one is advising the addition od a lubricant to regul;ar diesel.

I think that if you add an oil that mixes with the ethanol you would be sucessfull.

In my model airplane engines the fuel uses menthanol and caster oil and other lubricants.
I have experimented with mixing my own fuels. I acidentaly bought some oil ment to be mixed with gasoline. It would not mix with the menthanol!

To sucessfully use ethanol you need an oil that mixes with it and stays mixed. Caster oil may be the only possibility.

You have a lot of experimentation ahead of you.
Good luck.

Sorry about the wiseass remarks some of us have to make. Don't worry about them.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

mactoollover2005

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2007, 02:52:26 AM »
 Hi KD
        Ethenol at that high of a percentage  will cook your diesel eng and probably most gas engines too unless its designed for it. some  fuels that are rated at 15/85= 15%ethenol/85%gas or 10/90 or even 40/60,seen that one in southern alberta last summer.wont try it tho it cetane rating is still lower than the 160-180proof of methanal so im pretty sure it will toast a gas engine at 50/50 without some aditives added to it.
Good luck using ethanal
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

GIII

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2007, 03:18:50 AM »
I've thought about this post for a while and have a few issues that would have to be overcome.  Some of these cause problems when fueling a gasolene engine from alcohol too, so there is a good deal of prior work.  Diesel has about 130,000 BTU/gallon and ethanol about half that, so plan on 3 hp unless somehow you can modify the pump and nozzle to deliver twice the fuel per shot.  While you are hammering on the pump, figure out a way to lube it so it won't seize from lack of lubrication.  Compression ratios around 15:1 can be run if the timing is carefully set and maintained since the alcohol behaves as if it has a very high octane rating, somewhat due to it's cooling due to heat of vaporization.  I believe that the engine could be made to run; probably not well or for long though.  I think starting may be a problem due to the cooling effect.

If I had ethanol available I would trade it for diesel oil.

Good luck,
George

dkwflight

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 03:33:12 AM »
Hi
I think from the comments people are making, they are thinking about the ethanol as in how it works in gasoline engines.
In an injected engine the issues will be recalibrating the pump and injecter to move more fuel.

The combination of ethanol and the lube additive will have a higher btu value than straight ethanol alone.
The cetane rating of the fuel is more the issue.
The octane value of ethanol is not an issue altho the timing if the injection event will have to be changed some amount to bring the operation to optimum.

People who run veggie oil have found a timing change helps the engines to run properly.

Good luck
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

draganof

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 03:39:29 AM »
KD7ZRS

I apologize for my poor attempt at humor. All of the folks here have one thing in common, we come here to learn and share information on what has to be the most satisfying example of the DIYer. For some this is just a hobby, for others it is a way of life and for some just being independent from the "Oil Company controlled Utilities". I for one am gaining knowledge for when I retire and go 'Off Grid" in about ten years. I am also like you exploring the alternative fuels that are available. For me it is waste engine oil and vegetable oil. I have mastered all the big megawatt diesels and computer control systems at work and it has taught me that the KISS principle is where I need to be for my own power generation. Once again, sorry for the stupid comment in my first post.

KE7GMS
Changfa 195 and ST10
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mactoollover2005

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 04:17:39 AM »
 Folks
       ok,forgive me if i have my facts wrong. it has been 17 yrs since i took any courses in fuel,ethanol,methane fuels.
  I was taught that ethanal is a pure alcohol with a higher btu rateing but it is a very DRY fuel that it requires a lube in it for the njector pump and injectors. But even with all the extra additives in it it is still has a high octane rateing,102,104sh???
Was just thinking that i wouldnt want to run that anywhere near a diesel unless cut way down with clean crap oil in it to thin it out.
I may be wrong,wont be the first and wont be the last time,lol.
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

GIII

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2007, 04:27:18 AM »
Not wanting to seem defensive or augumentive, only clear, let me expand on the post above; I was thinking of some gasolene mechanical injection pumps that were used years ago for fuel injection that had lube sumps so that additives to the fuel weren't needed.  I am conserned with the tendency to autoignite of which octane is a measure were cetane is a measure of ignition delay in compression ignition.  I beleive that alcohols will have much shorter ignition delays than even the highest cetane number and so used octane in an attempt to say that detonation can tear the hell out of the engine in short order if the timing isn't just right.

A more appropriate solution may be put in a spark plug and move the injection nozzle to the intake manifold and change the timing to inject as the intake valve opens.  Add a mag and time it right, and there you would have a heavy duty gas engine with mechanical injection, if that could be ever sorted out so the pump would last.

I'd love to here the results of this though if someone wants to try.  I tried gasolene in a diesel once and was disappointed in the results and it took a little doing to undo the trial.

George

dkwflight

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 05:32:36 AM »
Hi
I believe that knocking might be an issue from the easier ignition. Timing of the injection event will compensate.

Detonation won't occur because the fuel is contained in a spray from the nozzle. It is not a fog of air-fuel in the whole cylinder like a gas engine. Ignition occurs because of the high temperature of the compressed air in the cylinder when the fuel is injected. I think the flame front will be closer to the nozzle than with diesel.

Detonation is what happens when either is sprayed in the intake.

Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Ironworks

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2007, 06:37:58 AM »
It will definately trash the Injection pump.

rcavictim

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Re: Ethanol fuel in 6/1
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2007, 04:53:27 PM »
I asked serious questions but all I get are stupid comebacks.  Some of you people seem to be real good at that. I'll not be posting anymore questions.

kd,

If you stick around you will learn that there is some commaraderie here as well as cold hard engine facts.  This place functions as a social club for many diesel  engine enthusiasts who hang out here.  Wisecracks and  attempts at humor is part of the color that makes this place the special place it is.  You are welcomed  to stay and free to  leave.
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