Author Topic: Synthetic Oil  (Read 10101 times)

GeckoPower

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Synthetic Oil
« on: February 17, 2007, 07:00:30 PM »
Does Synthetic oil burn as well as regular used motor oil? has anyone tried this? And what kind of mix ratio?  Does regular WMO burn as well as straight diesel with no side effects? no power losses?
My engine took about 600 hrs to break in.  There is no more drooling black slobber our of the tail pipe and muffler seams and threads on the exhaust manifold.  Also the coolant level is finnally starting to stabilize.  No more adding water/ glycol.  I was thinking of running synthetic SAE 30 for longer oil change durations but if I can't burn it after it's  lube duty, I will stick to standard SAE 30.  Also what kind of fuel preheat temps should a person have for WMO mixes?  Does it gum up the injector pump or injector at all?


Thanks for your reply, 
Off grid since Sept 1 2005,  1 online GTC 6/1, 5k head;  1 wore out 5 hp 2.6kw Honda (but still starts 1 st pull and will put in a 12 hour day;  1 wore out Honda 1kw when I got it, then I wore it out some more; 2004 Duramax Chev 1 ton; 35 hp New Holland Compact Tractor

Doug

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 02:31:34 AM »
Synthetics as fuel, probably a bad idea, much higher flash point...

Sythetics in a Listeroid with no oil filter, extended oil changes realy bad idea....

Phiberoptik

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 01:26:02 PM »
Does Synthetic oil burn as well as regular used motor oil? has anyone tried this? And what kind of mix ratio?  Does regular WMO burn as well as straight diesel with no side effects? no power losses?
My engine took about 600 hrs to break in.  There is no more drooling black slobber our of the tail pipe and muffler seams and threads on the exhaust manifold.  Also the coolant level is finnally starting to stabilize.  No more adding water/ glycol.  I was thinking of running synthetic SAE 30 for longer oil change durations but if I can't burn it after it's  lube duty, I will stick to standard SAE 30.  Also what kind of fuel preheat temps should a person have for WMO mixes?  Does it gum up the injector pump or injector at all?


Thanks for your reply, 

I've been running a 75% WMO / 25% #2 fuel oil mix in a 495 diesel with an ST-20 head. I've got about 1000 hours on it with good results. I'm putting together a listeroid now to run on the same mix. I can't tell you how well it's going to work on the listeroid, but I can tell you that it works great on the 495 engine.

I personally haven't run synthetic, but a friend of mine services waste oil burners and he tells me that the stuff just won't burn right in the waste oil burners. It's probably best just to avoid synthetic alltogether. If you get a little bit in a batch of regular WMO, don't worry about it, but don't go pump out a whole tank of synthetic and bring it home for fuel or you'll be dissapointed with the results.

WMO mix really likes to be heated. It seems the hotter you preheat the WMO, the better it works. I use a stainless steel plate type heat exchanger to preheat the mix with engine coolant before it enters my prefilters. I use a general oil filter (felt type oil burner filter) as a first stage. Then I use a 10 micron Garber spin on oil burner filter as a second stage. I put a restriction indicator guage on the Garber filter so it monitors restriction in the first and second stages.

Once it leaves the prefilters, the mix passes through the stock fuel filters on the 495 engine. I added a Carlin nozzle line preheater to each of the injector lines to reheat the mix just before it enters the injectors.

When the fuel comes out of the tank, it goes through a 3 way solenoid valve so I can select straight #2 or WMO mix. This is right before the plate type heat exchanger. I start the engine on straight #2 fuel oil, place a load on the generator, and run it until the coolant temp reaches 70C. Once it reaches temp in about 10 or 15 minutes, I switch to WMO mix. A half hour before shutdown, I'll switch it back to #2 fuel oil and let it flush the system so it starts easily the next time.

When WMO mix is burning properly and the engine is up to temp, there should be no visible smoke. If you get smoke, you're going to crap up an injector. It's not the end of the world to have to pull and clean an injector, but the best way to deal with it is to adjust your setup so that you're not making smoke in the first place. Direct injection engines are more prone to problems crapping things up than are indirect injection engines.

My 495 is indirect injection. I tried this on a Changfa 1115 with a direct injection setup. It wasn't happy. It would run good for a few days and then start smoking very lightly. Within the next day or two the smoke would increase. I'd pull the injector, clean it, and run again. I always had to keep cleaning the injector. I tried different mixes, water injection, additives, nothing improved it. With the 495 and it's indirect injection, I don't have that problem.

This genset has a microcontroller on it that monitors oil pressure, temps, current, voltage, frequency, etc. If anything runs out of it's operating window, it opens the main contactor and shuts down the engine. I've had it shut down unexpectedly and leave the fuel system full of WMO mix. I came home 8 hours later and found it this way. I've found that even in cold temps (+15F), that a little spritz of ether while cranking it will get it started cold on the WMO mix. It'll smoke pretty heavily until it warms back up and I leave it on #2 fuel oil for at least an hour when this happens to clean out the fuel system, but I've not had to purge the fuel system, ever.

I've had no problems gumming up the injector pump. I did have to pull and clean my injectors once a couple of days into testing it with straight WMO (no mix). That's not a big deal. It takes about an hour and a half to pull, clean, and reinstall them.

Ironworks

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 03:06:53 PM »
Whats a 495 engine?

rcavictim

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 04:44:11 PM »
Whats a 495 engine?

I was about to post the same question.   ???
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 04:48:04 PM »
Phiberoptik,

Thanx for a good informational post.  I have also been experimenting with such things and processes although not yet with WMO.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Phiberoptik

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 08:41:34 PM »
Whats a 495 engine?

Hello.  The 495 engine is supposedly a cummings clone made in China, although it doesn't look like any cummings that I've ever seen. George at Utterpower told me that he thinks this engine uses some Changfa parts. I think he said pistons, sleeves, etc. You can see the engine on www.generatordepotusa.com. I bought the 20kw open frame generator from them. The pictures show it with a turbocharger, but this one isn't turbocharged. It's indirect injection so it likes WMO, WVO, etc.


binnie

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2007, 10:01:56 PM »
The Listers on that site look like the GM90's or a take off of them. Unusual placement of the electric start...looks like it must be some type of rubber friction start running on the inside of the inner rim of the flywheel. Wonder how well that works? Might be a good idea for Jtodd and his 16/2 set up. If it works, it is nice and compact and well  out of the way. Good safety feature & prices are a surprise! Copybell might be the man to tell us. binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Doug

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2007, 01:45:48 AM »
Isn't Generator Depot the guy in Dallas who sold all those bad Lovson engines inthe first place?
PLEASE correct me if I'm worng but didn't that vender just dump a lot of crap on the market, burn some newbies here and deny the sand problems?

Doug

rcavictim

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2007, 05:16:03 AM »
Isn't Generator Depot the guy in Dallas who sold all those bad Lovson engines inthe first place?
PLEASE correct me if I'm worng but didn't that vender just dump a lot of crap on the market, burn some newbies here and deny the sand problems?

Doug

Yes, I remember reading the story here from one of the guys who got stuck with sand in his Listeroid from this dealer,  Armed with  the warranty plus the same size pile of cash he spent on the first engine could get him another.  That`s a really fine warranty. NOT!
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 03:11:52 PM »
Here is the thread  http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1528.msg19724#msg19724

Our `victim` is okiezeke. Dealer is in fact Generator Depot,   Here are a couple of his posts from page one.


Quote
    Lovson 20-2
« on: January 06, 2007, 05:54:39 pm »
   Reply with quote
Hi, folks,  as I've commented a time or two I'm the happy owner of a shiny new Lovson 20-2.  This engine will, I hope, be my primary off grid power source for my mountaintop farm in eastern Oklahoma.  I'm not a mechanic, machinest, engineer, and have no financial interest in any listeroid related business.  I'm a 59 year old good ol boy who does my own routine maintenance on my trucks(and bulldozer), and I own the basic hand and power tools that any DIYer would have.  So, I am not an expert in anything to do with diesel engines and am totally open to all comments and suggestions.
       So, here I am with this huge crate in my garage.  We drove to Dallas yesterday and picked it up from the folks at generator depot USA.  The unloading was uneventful with some 2" oak planks and a come-along directly into the garage.  The first thing I did was look into the sump,  where I found clean amber oil with the usual amount of grit, sand, and cast iron fragments.  Even tho the Lovson web site assured me the engine would be clean inside, I was not too suprised.  I've dis-assembled the engine down to the crankshaft--further work will have to wait till monday when I can get a piece of 1/2" steel to make a gib key puller.  So far, I;ve found:
1.  a small washer on top of a piston with no apparent damage
2.  Scratched big end bearings
3.  tappet guides that came out by hand.  Is this a problem??
4.  scratched crank surface(under the rod bearing)
5.  braided stainless flex low pressure fuel lines.
6.  a servicable looking fuel tank
7.  the cylinder has a mirror surface,  I think this means I need to hone it??
8.  Tappets with a fairly smooth bearing surface, but the edges are pretty beat up.
9.  a very normal looking fuel filter--I'll probably replace it anyway.
10 every piece that came out of the engine looked dirty and had a gritty feel.
11. minor surface rust on many parts.

In summary, no big suprises-except the washer!
I'll let you know how it goes with the rest of the tear-down.
Zeke



Quote
    Re: Lovson 20-2
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 07:55:12 pm »
   Reply with quote
I contacted Generator Depot USA to ask about freight charges, and if their Lovsons had any sand and grit in the crankcase. They replied:

Quote
We haven't, to this day, experienced any problem with sand or grit in the crankcase.

That must have been the day before you picked-up yours okiezeke.....  Wink
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 03:13:51 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Phiberoptik

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 03:40:19 PM »
I had some problems with the 495 genset as well, but I kind of expected it from before I placed the order. I haven't found anyone selling this stuff who's got what we might call a real warrantee. I did pull the side covers off and I took a flashlight and a screwdriver and went looking for casting sand. I found none.

I've not had any problems with the engine, but I've had to replace both bearings in the generator head, both CTs for the microprocessor controller's current inputs, and the main breaker failed from vibration damage. I replaced the CTs with standard 100:5 CTs that I bought off ebay for $27.00, I converted the DIN rail breaker to use a standard north american stye ITE breaker and I extended the wiring harness and moved the control box off the generator head and onto the wall to prevent further vibration damage. The radiator is a cheezy all aluminum deal that spit out a rivet and developed a leak. I had it fixed at a local repair shop, but I'll replace it with a larger radiator before hot weather anyway. All these failures happened before 250 hrs of run time. I've got about 1000 hours on it now with no more problems after 250 hrs.

I'm going to put an oil cooler on it before the hot weather. I think the oil temp runs a bit on the high side, so an oil cooler would be a sensible precaution.

I figured that since it was an import generator made in China, I'd have to do a few things to it. So far it's been right on target with that. Nothing really major, but I did have to work on it a bit more than I would had I spent the extra money and got a perkins of a John Deere, so I'm not unhappy with it.

I didn't buy my 6/1 from them so I can't speak for the quality of thier listeroids. I bought mine from a guy up here in Maine that has a small warehouse full of 6/1's and a few petteroids too. He sells the Metro brand 6/1 for $875.00. He's close enough to me that I was able to drive up and pick it up. I opened the sump and poked around for casting sand. I couldn't find any. Had I found some, I'd have torn it right down, but since it was clean I'm not going to bother.


Doug

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 12:21:30 AM »
Phiberoptik: You got your Roid form Sam Crosbie?

He's another one who should post a reply about the Metro 6/1 he sold that had its fly wheel fracture after only a few months of service.....

All things considered, He hasn't had any complaints against him in the year I have been posting here.

Doug


Phiberoptik

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2007, 01:19:41 PM »
Hi Doug,

Yes, I got it from Sam Crosby.  His warehouse is a little over an hour ride from here.  I was impressed with the amount of parts he stocks. I picked up a few spare parts while I was there. I thought it was kind of cool that piston rings come packed in a can of oil. Looks like a big can of tuna. They should keep indefinately this way.

Because of my location, I saved a good chunk of change buying from him. His price is reasonable, and I got out of paying a freight bill in exchange for a couple hours of windshield time. I did have to pay 5% Maine sales tax.

I hadn't heard about one of his units fracturing a flywheel. Did it explode or did the end user find it and shut it down before it popped?  I hope no one got hurt.

Mark


M61hops

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Re: Synthetic Oil
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2007, 11:01:24 PM »
Just my 2 cents... over the last 3 years I've bought 1 peteroid powered Metro 7.5KW genset and 2 Metro 6/1 listeroids from Sam Crosby and I think I'v been treated fair and that he's an O/K guy to deal with.  I'm a little concerned about the quality of the castings of the Listeroid flywheels because my flywheels that have micro V grooves machined in are poor quality.  It's like the Indian producer of them chose the crappy castings to cut the grooves into to try and clean up ugly castings because the smooth flywheels look good on the belt surfaces and the grooved ones have a lot of flaws where the groovs are, maybe the casting sand was too wet in that part of the mold. The belt surface would look really bad if the grooves were not there and there are a few big voids in the grooves on one of my flywheels; I asked Sam for a replacement for that one and he declined.  I'm not too worried about it after reading up on cast iron but I might put heavy guards over the wheels just in case.  Sam did tell me that he knows of two Metro flywheels that have broken at the hubs and that it seemed that was mostly caused by someone hammering the gib keys in way too hard.  It was just good luck that nobody was hurt buy the breaking flywheels but low quality castings is part of the reality of the 'oid world.  Operators of these engines need to pay attention 
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