Start o Matic Lister generators

[Stan]

Since everyone (almost anyway) is hot to trot on automating the Lister, take a look at the early 50's Start O Matic.  It has a fuel cut-off solenoid  mounted to the side of the cam-box. It closes the rack to stop the engine, and introduces a pin under the valve lifter so as to decompress the engine. There is also a microswitch that detects when the engine has started and up to full speed, which then cuts off the power to the starter motor.  The Gen head has a 24V starter winding on one end of the head, which cranks the engine until it starts, then surrenders itself to the generator which does it's job. There's an electronic box that takes care of all the switching.   One interesting difference between it and the regular 6/1 Lister is the weight of the flywheels, a whopping 150Kg (that's 330 lbs) each, almost double the weight of the regular flywheels.  How about trying to spin one of those puppies up to exploding speed (don't forget to duck!)
Stan
http://www.powercubes.com/listers_3.html

[Stan]

Correction.  The flywheel weight should have read 330kg which is approx 286 lbs.  Still too much to lift smartly off the shaft
Stan

[Listeroidsusa]

1 kg =2.2 lbs so the 330kg flywheel would actually weigh 726 lbs., about the same as a complete 6/1 Lister! BTW, Satyajeet is building me a new flywheel pattern for the GM-90 engines to have the heavier flywheels for generator use. I have a supply of the 12 hp heavy flywheels. I added 2 additional flywheels to my 6/1 and it makes a great difference in starting. Just get all that weight rotating and its easy to get it over the compression stroke. This was just an experiment but it worked so well that I'm having all my flywheels built heavier.

Mike Montieth

[Listeroidsusa]

Speaking of the start-o-matic sets, I have the manual and electrical schematics for them if anyone is interested.

Mike

[Doug]

Mike has any one in India coppied the start-o-matic generator head?

This is called a syncronous converter, they have to handy ability to transfer extra power from starting battery bank to boost the output voltage durring a heavy inrush surge.  And they're rare as rocking horse poop.....

Doug

[Stan]

The start o matic was given the extra heavy duty flywheels to allow it to cope with sudden electrical loads while keeping a constant rpm.  Sort of the ultimate in a "dedicated" generating prime power source.  It would seem to me that if some of the Indian manufacturers could cast these flywheels, and the cranks would take the extra strain (I have seen pics of at least one cracked crank on a startomatic) these would be highly desireable machines here in NA for power generation, even without the automatic start and shut down capability.
Stan

[BruceM]

Great post on the Start O Matic, Stan. 
I"d love to see the internals on the valve lifter pin and the "up to speed" microswitch. 

Bruce

[GuyFawkes]

I've just picked up a 5-1 based start-o-matic, be pleased to take a any pictures anyone wants.


Have a pdf scanned in old manual, very grubby, so plan on making a new one with proper photos from scratch.

What I am lacking is the original woring schematics

cheers

[Bikerbob]

Maybe old, but here are some thoughts from a Listeroid wannabe:

Adding a starter gear to the generator pulley? Add to this a standard "automotive style" starter.
Will give a nice reduction ration and should allow use of "normal duty" components in terms of starter motor and gear because of the higher operating speed.

Think gear from a cingle cylinder air cooled diesel (setup similar to lawnmover engine).
The Starter gear (flywheel) on a Yanmar has a diameter of approx. 300mm (12").
The starter cranks the small diesel engine to about 200-400 rpm. Reduction ratio to your Listeroid is depending on your engine speed.
Starter on the 8 hp single cylinder diesels (Yanmar type) are rated at 1-1,3kW (12V).
Maybe underpowered, but just to give you an idea about the setup I see.

This setup will work almost the same way as the "start o matic" since the starter works "on the generator".
Machining the pulley, and at the same time a surface to fit the starter gear from a Yanmar should be a rather simple task.



Things to be considered:
*Does the huge moment of inertia mean that there is a risk of burning the starter due to the longer than usual "rev up time" before the starter reaches it's "normal" operating speed?

*Is there a need to monitor the "pick up of speed" on the engine, should the belt slip?

*How to automatically engage decompression until the engine has reached "start speed"?

Comments?

/B
Your mission impossible: Upgrade Low-tech to High-tech, adding nothing but No-tech...

[GuyFawkes]

The original SOM basically had a 24 VDC motor added to the alternatot shaft, this has a lot of engineering benefits.

1/ when not in starting mode, there are zero extra moving parts or bearings running.

2/ start loads and generating loads are similar, and can go through the same bearings and drive system

3/ KISS

Your solution is going to add loads to the pulley end of the generator head, it's doable and feasible, but I'd like to see an extra bearing there so none of that load gets fed into the generator head bearings

Most decent quality starter motors will take 60 seconds cranking then 120 seconds idle duty cycles, 60 seconds will be enough to wind up a CS, if it isn't then you have engine problems.

The CS SOM has the usual manual start options, but in auto mode they are ignored, it just cranks her up as is, I personally wouldn't mess with this, better to get a cheap 24 VDC Ford 6D starter that has the muscle than a small hitachi type compact job that doesn't, remember the lister were built "by the pound" (in weight) if you know what I mean, so following that rule rather than tacking on light weight modern crap is always good to go.

If I was going to do it from new, eg retrofit a listeroid to a SOM with a generator head, I'd start by selecting a suitable (heavy duty) gen head, and arrange that so it could work the same way as a genuine SOM, a generator is just a motor in reverse in many ways after all, so you'd only have to select a head that could take high current for starting, rather than going an expensive DC battery > DC motor direct coupled to small AC genny > small AC genny output winding up main gen head in motor mode heath robinson style solution.

My dad had a 2.5 Kw petrol briggs and stratton genset in about 1980ish that would start on DC, no separate starter motor, it was inside the gen head, so this was not a unique Lister CS SOM solution, might be worth investigating this angle first.

Sure this doesn't help those who already have gen heads, but folks with paper plans and no iron could benefit.

HTH etc

cheers

[n2toh]

Good question what would it take to retrofit an ST head so it can start the Lister?

[Bikerbob]

I am not convinced about the added loads to the generator. Normally you load upp the pulley with about 3-?? kW from the engine. Take away that load, and add 1-2 kW on the "other side" will not make too much of a difference, especially if you take into consideration the extremely low hours this load (starter) will have.

The main reason that I was thinking about this setup with Yanmar'ish parts is simply because I am selling Yanmar clones... Parts readily availible, if you know what I mean...

Keep it simple, that is an important factor, but also to use readily availible parts, to, you guessed it, keep it simple...
This, in my opinion, disqualifies the original setup. I like things that can easily be replaced, like a standard starter, or starter gear, or generator...

Well, I still have to decide who will ship me the iron from Idia before I can really start with the details, so no offence to all you guys who has been doing this for (some) time.

Parts checklist:
Genhead: On it's way from Germany. 7,5kW STC, 230/400V, three phase.
Engine: Two offers so far, one with exactly twice(!) the price of the other. (I know one of these suppliers is monitoring this forum...)Ideas: Plenty.
Time to get the job done: No way...


/B

[GuyFawkes]

I am not convinced about the added loads to the generator. Normally you load upp the pulley with about 3-?? kW from the engine. Take away that load, and add 1-2 kW on the "other side" will not make too much of a difference, especially if you take into consideration the extremely low hours this load (starter) will have.

I mean load between starter and gen head pulley / ring gear, not load on belts to lister(oid)

The main reason that I was thinking about this setup with Yanmar'ish parts is simply because I am selling Yanmar clones... Parts readily availible, if you know what I mean...

lol...

Keep it simple, that is an important factor, but also to use readily availible parts, to, you guessed it, keep it simple...
This, in my opinion, disqualifies the original setup. I like things that can easily be replaced, like a standard starter, or starter gear, or generator...

My (genuine original lister) 5/1 CS Start-o-matic is 55 years old, I'm not going to live long enough to worry about replacing the starting mechanism, my heirs might be, but by then owning an internal combustion engine will prolly get you 20 to life.

Your solution has more parts, is more complex, and there is no way in hell that your yanmar starter will still be running in 2060 AD after 55 years of service.

I'll lay a lot of virtual money you have never been able to touch and fiddle with a genuine Start-o-matic, because once you do you understand why they have such a reputation, and the simple engineering elegnce of the whole thing makes everything else look crude and the sort of thing engineering students might have produced instead of those with true knowledge and experience.

now........

if there is a demand I can do some picture over the weekend and post them?

[trigzy]

There is demand.  I want those pictures post-haste!

You must comply.

lol


Resistance is futile and all that jazz.....

Let us know when they are up.

Steve

[Bikerbob]

GuyFawkes:

I agree, and yes, proably the "ole British Iron" was a truly ingenious design.
However, cost and availability of part today, not in 2060, will be an important judging factor when building a "test rig". Today. Hopefully not in 2060...
If that later on evolves to a "true" start-o-matic, well, that remains to see...

And yes, some pictures would be highly appreciated, since I, and many with me, has not seen the original setup.

If somebody could also explain the concept of the genhead (pictures/schematics anyone?), I think a lot of us would really like that.

Come to think of it, is not this what the car industry is after today? Combined starter/alternator?

Have a look at this, from Slovakian manufacturer Iskra. Additional features: Starter...
Since it is a permanent magnet machine, it should be an easy thing. Just came across this some time ago, since I use some of their parts for other applications.
Probably it will not last you a lifetime or two, but should be able to get pretty close?

Picture is availible at: http://www.iskra-ae.com/eng/images_news/Asz3.jpg

**from here on, text copied from ISKRA homepage**
08.10.2003 - NEW ASZ integrated flywheel generator has been developed in Iskra Autoelektrika

ASZ – Iskra’s integrated flywheel generator is an efficient and compact electric power source using up-to-date technology and it is designed for built into the flywheel on engine. Continuous power of 14 V 5 kW provides sufficient energy for the many additional electrical loads possible on current applications. Additionally, the versions of other nominal voltages can be defined corresponding the needs of application. Further conversions to 220 V AC and other voltages are possible with the simple connection of an additional inverter. The new system consists of a high-energy permanent magnet electric machine and an appropriate electronic controller. The ASZ generator system is suitable for applications on boats, stationary power sets, and vehicles and on other applications with high electricity demands.

FEATURES OF THE FLYWHEEL GENERATOR

· Provides a stable and high quality DC supply of 14 V 5 kW continuously
· Water cooling increases available output power
· Additional functions can be provided: engine START, electrical PROPULSION, Acceleration-BOOSTER
· Compact design integrated into the flywheel saves space on the engine
· Incorporates high energy magnets on the rotor for high efficiency (> 80%) and high specific power
· Three-phase brushless design, virtually maintenance-free solution, provides long-life operation
· Programmable electronic controller, flash processor incorporated for custom settings
· Option with CAN interface for system communication
· Possible output voltage options: 14 V, 28 V, and 42 V
**END OF COPIED TEXT**


The struggle continues.


Rgds.
Bob