Author Topic: Propane Injection  (Read 16701 times)

justsomeguy

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Propane Injection
« on: January 17, 2006, 06:51:04 AM »
Has anyone tried this on a Listerclone or other small diesel?  I see that many places sell kits for smaller diesel trucks and claim all sorts of more power, less fuel used, etc.  I know of a guy that uses propane injection on a ford power stroke, and it did increase his horsepower on the dyno by quite a bit.

Being that the listers are naturally aspirated, and some are indirect injection, I figure that might not be the best application for propane, but I thought I'd ask.

This site explaines how/why it works.

http://www.dieselsmoke.com/info/propaneinjection.html

pa73

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2006, 03:16:32 PM »
I read the linked article and wondered if LPG injection could be used for an instantaneous power boost.

Some members run an 8/1 or 12/1 to have reserve power in their genset. Others have observed that a 6/1 cannot start their air compressor. Would it be possible to eliminate the need for reserve power as follows....

Your electrical power needs lead you to specify an 8/1, but in reality you only need 2-3KW for 98% of the time. You fit your engine with an accurate tachometer and linked LPG kit. When speed drops, LPG is added to the intake. So you can add a near-instantantaneous 1-2KW to your engine with LPG injection. And 98% of the time you have a right-sized engine with the good fuel economy.

Just thinking aloud. I haven't a clue how to do it, although I ran a BMW 730i on LPG for 3 years.


kyradawg

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2006, 05:06:45 PM »
Injecting gas is the wrong way to go. First its refined from crude oil you know the stuff our young brothers and sisters are dying for in Irac :'(. Any form of energy that increases the death toll (people or vegetation) in my book should be avoided at all/any costs if possible. Secondly when your propane tank is empty the fun's all over no more power boost. An on demand power boost should be non depleatable if its to be relied on (tanks empty blizard outside). For a power boost that is allways there on a as needed basis (or continually) you could use the magnetic clutch engaged m-45 supercharger off of a slk,c230 ect mercedes that can be had for less than $100 on ebay. The clutch could be engaged with a micro switch connected to the governer and only come into play when excesive load is applied. Peace&Love :D, Darren

justsomeguy

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2006, 08:20:01 PM »
That supercharger idea wouldn't give any more power, it would actually cause a net power loss.  In a diesel, just increasing air doesn't increase your power.  You need to increase fueling to increase your power.

To make any diesel "power burst"  all one has to do is increase the upper fueling limit.  However, there's nothing to limit the length of the burst.  Eventually, somethign will break, melt, burn up, fly apart, etc.


Power burst is an interesting concept though. I'll have to put some thought in to it.  It seems to be a very easy problem to solve.

kyradawg

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2006, 09:29:37 PM »


P.S. homemade methane/biogas is a really cool idea!

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:53:59 PM by kyradawg »

kpgv

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 03:30:12 AM »
Hi pa73,
To cut thru the "unnecessary" political BS, IMPO, to use "superchargers" or "fuel enrichment boosters" as an occasional power boost is the wrong way to go, with respect to reliability and dependability. I'm not saying it can't be done, but why not run a higher HP engine, or consider applying one of these horsepower boosters full time.

Kevin

Procrustes

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 04:07:54 AM »
To cut thru the "unnecessary" political BS, IMPO, to use "superchargers" or "fuel enrichment boosters" as an occasional power boost is the wrong way to go, with respect to reliability and dependability. I'm not saying it can't be done, but why not run a higher HP engine, or consider applying one of these horsepower boosters full time.

Kevin

Thanks for mentioning that.  I was under the impression that turbochargers and superchargers were for boosting the horsepower of an engine relative to it's size and weight, for instance for racing or fuel economy.  Along this line of thought, if you want more horsepower from a stationary engine, what you really want is a larger engine.  However I have seen a factory supercharged stationary Detroit 3-53, which I'm unable to explain.

Perhaps the complexity of a turbocharger would make more sense for a high altitude installation.

kpgv

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 06:31:03 AM »
Dear Procrustes,

With all due respect,
I was responding to rp73's considering a "part time and/or occasional" HP boost for an intermittent and/or occasional high load "booster". Please note, I didn't say it couldn't be done. Without a well defined AND executed sensory AND application SYSTEM with ROCK SOLID feedback loops, or FULL time manual and eyeball monitoring,  part time SUPERCHARGING in any form is a LOOSER. :P

Kevin
 

Procrustes

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 07:05:19 AM »
I was responding to rp73's considering a "part time and/or occasional" HP boost for an intermittent and/or occasional high load "booster". Please note, I didn't say it couldn't be done. Without a well defined AND executed sensory AND application SYSTEM with ROCK SOLID feedback loops, or FULL time manual and eyeball monitoring,  part time SUPERCHARGING in any form is a LOOSER. :P

My apologies, I somehow thought you were saying that in general turbo and supercharges don't make a lot of sense for stationary engines.  I believe that, but the stationary supercharged 3-53 I mentioned makes me worry that I'll soon be disabused.

I didn't mean to imply that supercharging a Lister is impossible, nor did I believe that you said so.

pa73

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 10:04:49 AM »
Hi pa73,
To cut thru the "unnecessary" political BS, IMPO, to use "superchargers" or "fuel enrichment boosters" as an occasional power boost is the wrong way to go, with respect to reliability and dependability. I'm not saying it can't be done, but why not run a higher HP engine, or consider applying one of these horsepower boosters full time.

Kevin

It is more complex, and introduces potential reliability problems. However, having excess capacity for 98% of your runtime is inefficient. It is a choice between complexity and relative inefficiency.

However, from this discussion and some  google-based research I've understood that the power increase is probably minimal. Nice idea, but not one I will take forward. Thanks to all for their contributions.



kyradawg

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2006, 08:43:05 PM »
 Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:47:09 PM by kyradawg »

kpgv

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2006, 10:16:47 PM »
Hi Dawg,
Please don't take offense, just my opinions, and "looser" is probably too strong a word.
For me, that sort of complexity on a super simple machine like these is too much of a dependability problem.
It all depends what one is trying to do. I'm sure someone out there has a 25/2 that needs more horsepower to do the job.
That fellow (Dancause) that turbo'ed the 6/1 in Canada built a nice, simple, well performing rig. A free floating turbo is about as simple and dependable as supercharging gets. It's always "on" and ready. The sacrifice is the extra belt to the oil pump and the extra oil hoses. The full time belt driven blower has the extra belt problem as well. The old GMC's drive the blower internally (as I remember) and run all the time. Adding and tuning a load sensing clutch device to the blower drive just sounds like another layer of unnecessary complication unless there is simply no higher output engine available, or maybe it needs to be "portable".
My Wife thinks I have lost my mind lately running around testing "draws" on the appliances and other circuts around the house. I get that there can (will) be possible overload situations, and in a perfect world, everyone buys the perfect and adequate engine and head the first time, but in the real world, there will invariably be the need for more power.
Wouldn't it be simpler to find or devise a load shed or load sequencer to manage the situation?
One thing I DO know for sure is this thing had better do what I've told my Wife it will, and it had better not have much "down time"! ;D

Kevin

     

rgroves

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 12:08:25 AM »

Kevin, if you're just trying to accomodate peak loads, you might consider adding a small bank of batteries and an inverter.  Xantrex makes a number of inverters that will simultaneously charge batteries, parallel their output to the AC input, and even act as a transfer switch so you can connect them to the grid as well. Good quality inverters can surge to 2 or 3 times their rated max power. And they're designed to do all these things, without you having to kludge more complexity onto an elegantly simple engine.

There's one other nice thing about adding an inverter and batteries.  Your family doesn't end up sitting in the dark while you're maintaining the engine during an outage.

Not a very gear-grinding solution, but it makes a lot of sense if you're just trying to back up house electricity.

Feel free to email me and I'll recommend some more reading and an excellent book.


>My Wife thinks I have lost my mind lately running around testing "draws" on the appliances and other circuts around the house. I get that there can (will) be possible >overload situations, and in a perfect world, everyone buys the perfect and adequate engine and head the first time, but in the real world, there will invariably be the need >for more power.
>Wouldn't it be simpler to find or devise a load shed or load sequencer to manage the situation?
>One thing I DO know for sure is this thing had better do what I've told my Wife it will, and it had better not have much "down time"! ;D

Kevin

     
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justsomeguy

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2006, 09:00:44 PM »
I'll ask again.  So, Is anyone using Propane injection with a Listeroid or other small diesel?

BruceM

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Re: Propane Injection
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2006, 03:51:58 PM »
From what I've read, propane injection in a normally aspirated engine is only good for a 15% increase in power.  That's not enough to do much with.

Some hybrid technology (inverter/battery boost for peak loads) is likely the most efficient solution as it allows the minimum engine for the job.

I wonder if the crank bearings on the 6/1 could handle a second set of flywheels???  More flywheel is the antique solution and sometimes they're good ones.

Bruce


« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 10:59:35 PM by BruceM »