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Author Topic: AC or DC?  (Read 23345 times)

bobkrack

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AC or DC?
« on: January 28, 2007, 09:25:32 AM »
Any ideas - if my ultimate goal was to supply power to an inverter - would I be better off using an AC alternator or a DC generator?

I am certainly planning on using battery for storage and/or filtration and I can supply field current independently.

Thanks,
Bob

dkwflight

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 02:08:11 PM »
Hi
It will be more efficient to charge the battery directly.
Dennis
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rcavictim

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 04:40:06 PM »
As I understand it, using a car or truck alternator is somewhat inneficient.  I`d be inclined to research and look for military surplus generators, welding generators, small traction motors, and PM DC motors, if you want higher efficiency in a direct current only charging setup. I suspect the PM DC motor would give the highest conversion efficiency of all of these but you need to control the voltage and power by shaft speed (not always practical).  Personally I would go with a conventional 60 Hz alternator like an ST head and diodes (AC powered battery charger).
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adhall

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 09:23:04 PM »
Don't forget that for good battery life you should have a charge controller. The voltage regulator on a car or truck alternator won't do as good a job at this.

I don't have direct experience with this, but it seems logical that you could use a charge controller intended for photo-voltaic panels if you decide to go the DC route. These are designed to take a DC input. (You would want to avoid the ones the use a "load dump" circuit to control the voltage.)

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solarphil

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 09:45:56 PM »
For long battery life, the cells should be brought to float at least weekly and equalisation at least monthly if you do not have solar or wind to "complete" the charging from a motor/generator.

In order to control all this effectively, a charge controller as Andy has mentioned is necessary and a high powered solar controller will certainly do the job.

Inverter/chargers like the Xantrex ( have a Trace 3024) are perfect for generator charging.  Studer also make a very reliable unit

listerdiesel

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 09:27:04 PM »
Couple of things to look out for at this early stage:

1) What battery type?

2) What power inverter?

3) What motive power for the generator?

If you are long-term serious about the project, get wet Lead-Acid or Nickel-Cadmium, don't get into gel or sealed batteries.

If the inverter is anything much above 2kVA output then you'll be into 24V or 48V input voltage, so your battery will be appropriately sized. Seriously large inverters go up to 400V or 600V input voltage to cut the current (and cabling losses) down. 110V DC is a 'good' figure as you can run lighting direct off the batteries and it is relatively safe. Once you get higher on voltage then DC starts to get dangerous.

If the engine is a low-speed type, then an alternator will need to be geared up to get a decent amount of power out of it, while you can still find low-rpm DC sets around. We have a complete 7kW 110V DC set with a Lister CD (not for sale) that will hopefully one day be chugging away on a similar project.

We have access to 110V battery sets from sub-station renewals, and we find that good quality Lead-Acid batteries are still viable after 40years on float charge.

Peter

Stan

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 09:40:34 PM »
Peter is right on with his advice about wet (we call them flooded on this side of the pond) cells being best for serious use.  The only caution I would put in here is the normal one about "watch out for the AMPS".  You may only be using 12 volt configuration but if you have 200 amps reserve power or more you can weld with it.  It wouldn't be good for the batteries but you can see what a dead short in some part of your wiring would do!  Burn your house down in a real hurry. Appropriate sized wiring for DC is a must, look at the tables for that, it's bigger than AC wiring requirements.
Stan

Guy_Incognito

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 01:07:49 AM »
Quote
You may only be using 12 volt configuration but if you have 200 amps reserve power or more you can weld with it.  It wouldn't be good for the batteries but you can see what a dead short in some part of your wiring would do!

I melted a 3/4" ring spanner one day on a 24V starter motor - was undoing the battery terminal and it swung around and touched the block - a small spark that welded it to the block, a yelp from me, and it began to glow. And glow and glow and glow, as two 12V atteriesb with an available cranking current of about 1300amps discharged fairly quickly. By the time I figured out it was the battery isolator stuck on and had wopped it with a convenient sledgehammer that was nearby, all the battery wiring was a bit on the hot and slightly-melted side.

My spanner was banana-shaped after that.... which was actually pretty convenient at times.

mobile_bob

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 01:13:16 AM »
there are several camps on this topic

there is dc and then there is dc , same as for ac

there are pro's and con's with any type of voltage

high voltage dc buss systems have lower losses but generally speaking have very large strings of batteries which require more careful maintenance and looking for a weak cell. also there are issues with serious injury with high voltage whether or not it is ac or dc
high voltage dc can have serious consequence if you develop a bad cell, think big explosion!
personally i think that 48 vdc is the max i would look into, it is a good comprimise between safety, maintenance and wire sizing,,, and there are quality inverters already available

lower voltage systems such as 12vdc have gone out of favor for most folks, but there is a place for them.
12vdc systems are far easier to maintain and in many ways safer, not much shock potential here.
depending on the system and its purpose, the ability to split off circuits and run smaller and cheaper inverters works well for some installation, redundancy is the key word here, and having cheaper modified square wave inverters one can have a few spares to swap out very inexpensively.
in a 12vdc system the bus wiring has to be quite large, but with carreful design wire runs can be made short enough to make this not as big an issue as some would make you believe.

then there is the issue of charging and how you are going to go about it, whether grid, wind , hydro, genset or dilithium crystals :)

to answer part of your question re generator or alternator as it relates to automotive components
forget the generators of old, they are robust enough but of poor efficiency, and also forget the average car alternators, they too are not very efficient and most have internal regulators which are not optimal in any application for flooded lead acid batteries.

if you want to use automotive alternators, think about hd truck units of the large frame families such as prestolite loadhandlers or the large leece nevilles or if you got the bucks go with an electodyne alternator. with these you still scrap the regulator and go with an external controller such as the balmar, xantrex or amplepower units. these units take control of the alternator and have temp sensors for not only the alterntor but the batteries to provide protection and temp compensation. they provide true three stage charging with equalization and are programable for all parameters from soft start to precise bulk, absorption , float voltages and /or time based.  personally this is the option i like the most for various reasons mentioned among others.

some of these hd alternators can provide very decent efficiency, relatively low speed charging and have very hd bgs along with being relatively user friendly for repairs. also i should note that ebay usually has many to choose from well worth the money.

another thing to keep in mind is total system efficiency, don't get hung up on on part of the system because of a reported efficiency rating of a single component. what you want to be after is overall efficiency of the complete system and there are many factors to consider.

for instance, one inverter/charger might advertise their inverter as being 95% efficient, but at what load? and then again how efficient is the charger section? if the charger is only 75% efficient then you certainly have to factor that part into the overall system performance efficiency.

another example, is how the batteries will be charged, flooded cells can take a large amount of current from about 50% to 80% depth of charge, but from 80% to full charge they cannot take but a small fraction of the amperage and must be tapered back as they top off. in other words the last 20% may take 10 times longer to charge than the first 30 percent. this last 20% will take a very long time and if you don't have good efficiency from the charging system it only compounds the efficiency problem.

another concern is conversion, you want to limit the amount of conversion you go thru, it makes little sense to generate, run thru and inverter charger then to a battery to charge when you can go from a dedicated alternator direct to the battery in many cases, most especially if you are using an inverter/charger of unadvertised or relatively low efficiency on the charger half of the inverter charger.

the answer to your question is there is NO right answer that fits all installations, each installation has peculiarities of its own that require different approaches. folks will argue this till the cows come home.

the one thing that everyone will agree on though is, conservation first.
every watt you don't burn is one you do not have to generate, convert, store, reconvert and transport

plain as mud huh?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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draganof

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 01:45:52 AM »
Good post!
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mobile_bob

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 01:58:46 AM »
dragonof

you from the seattle area?

tacoma here

bob g
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draganof

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 02:26:54 AM »
yes sir, puyallup
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ZackaryMac

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 02:32:21 AM »
Excellent post!
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rmchambers

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2007, 04:15:35 AM »
Thanks Bob,
  It's more of a case of sweat the big details, and the little details won't add up to much in the grand scheme of things.

That's what I love about this forum, even when you're not expecting it, you learn something new!

Robert

mobile_bob

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Re: AC or DC?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2007, 04:36:53 AM »
another factor

i have heard the point being made that
"i don't want to cycle my batteries more than 10%" or some other short cycle plan

while it is true the batteries will last longer being short cycled, it is a false economy for most folks because of other factors

what good is it to extend the lifespan by perhaps twice if it costs 4 times the saved money on batteries to charge them in fuel
and genset lifespan.

generally the batteries are relatively cheap in kwatt/hr/cycles compared to the genset kwatt/hr/generated/lifecycle

as our dear friend GuyF used to go on about, it is a case of having to do the math :)
not difficult math, but basic computations.

bob g
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