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Author Topic: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel  (Read 7858 times)

rcavictim

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Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« on: January 20, 2007, 05:15:51 AM »
I have an opportunity to acquire some brand new synthetic oil which I hope will be useful as a motor fuel.  Unfortunately I have no data on it but am told it is synthetic.  It is very thick, like 90W gear lube and a nice golden color like corn syrup. I was thinkling of cutting it with kerosene to make it less viscous.  All I know is that it was used as an additive in the manufacturing process of making automobile tire rubber.

I`m not a petroleum chemist so I really don`t understand what the differences are between what are commonly called synthetic oils and regular mineral oils. Are synthetics based on mineral oil stock or are they something else altogether?  Now I`ll assume this synthetic isn`t the same formulation as an oil desiged to work in a car`s crankcase in all temperatures and severe service like say Mobil One

That being the case still I wonder. has anyone tried burning synthetic motor oil in their diesel engine?  Were there any coking or deposit problems?  Obnoxious smell?  Babies being born deformed in the hood?  Under the hood?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
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-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2007, 09:31:30 PM »
I don't know how well it will burn in an engine, but in a cracking plant trying to make fuel oil from used auto and industrial lubricants, heavy synthetics were an indigestable nighmare.

Not being a chemist myself I can't tell you why they are so stable but they refuse to crack like conventional oils. I assume they would be harder to ignite in an engine, maybe thinning with gasoline would solve the issue I dunno......

Doug

rcavictim

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2007, 01:33:39 AM »
Well I got my 5 gallon sample today as promissed and it came in from the cold.  As I unscrewed the 3 inch plastic cap from the plastic container the oil that was in the threads damped the rotatrion of the cap and it felt a lot like the consistency of STP Oil Treatment.  When I stuck my finger in the stuff it felt a lot like the consistency of STP Oil Treatment and nearly as viscous.  This is way thicker than 90W gear oil. I was only reporting what I had been told earlier.  It has virtually no smell.

I metered some out into some small graduated measuring cups and tried mixing 20% and 33% kerosene and 50% diesel.  It doesn`t take much kerosene to significantly thin the product,.  I`m gonna guess the 20% dilution was about the consistency of 20W motor oil once mixed.

Putting it in a pyrex glass measuring cup on an electric element to warm it had a good thinning effect with just heat.  I have misplaced my lab thermometer but I think I got it up to around 170F.  At that temp it was almost like water.  I am eager to try the stuff straight in my JD175 engine with my 120 watt (at full power)  injector heater but I have to make a line heater prior to the FI pump and a filter heater to do so.

This stuff may be useful as-is as a motor oil reinforcer for folks with engines that burn oil, etc.  I should bottle it and sell it as my Magic Elixer.  I could obtain about 7000 gallons if I had a big wad of $$$$$. Alas,  I don`t have any money at all.  :'(   If I`m lucky I`ll be able to get a 250 gallon jug.

More when I have news.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2007, 02:34:42 AM »
Don't stick your fingers in mystery synthetics lol....

Seriously I recall some techincal specs on a hydraulic oil used in air craft. Some of these products are engineered to have a hate on for water and will drive the natural oils and moister from your hands and skin possibly giving you a skin problem... Other oils actively will penetrate your skin and some oils bind well with the natural oils and fats in your Body and are hell on your liver.

Good luck with the oil you have and just to be safe getthe Whimis on it and find out if the stuff is clorinated or has any wierd chemicals that may produce toxic substances when burned or mixed with petro based thinners.

rcavictim

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2007, 02:56:47 AM »
... just to be safe getthe Whimis on it and find out if the stuff is clorinated or has any wierd chemicals that may produce toxic substances when burned or mixed with petro based thinners.

Before my source was able to go get this stuff and transport it the people from OMANSO, the Ontario Ministry of Allegedly Nasty Stuff in Oil were at the closed factory site, sampled the tanks and tested it.  It is reported totally free of chlorinated biphenals, etc.  I was told the report stated it was pure mineral oil.  That doesn`t make a lot of sense when I was also told it was a synthetic by the fellow that is salvaging it.  Could it be pure synthetic mineral oil?

I have decided upon a test.  I will mix it 50-50 with kerosene and burn it in a wick type oil lamp.  I will burn pure kerosene in an identical lamp at the same time as a control.  I`ll look for smoking properties, soot on the glass chimney and wick deposits.  If the wick stays clean I`ll feel better about trying it in my engine.  I know the WTF I was trying to use gunked up a wick in a kerosene space heater something fierce in short order when I tried it last winter.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2007, 03:14:50 AM »
Your good to go....

And yes I believe they can make synthetics that are identical to mineral oils only the difference is that natural mineral oils are a blend of " ends ". A pure synthetic stock is basicaly man made stuff based on a avery specific molicule type. But I'm not a chemist, and I could be full of fecal matter.

Not all the stuff sythetic or conventional cracked in our pots. Generaly stuff broke up in to shorter lengths and tars coke and ick. Remove the tars and ick, the coak dropped out in suspession and what was left was a blend of mutilated lighter hydro carbon chains and heavier ones with an average viscosity of fuel oil ( generaly between a 2 and 3 ). This had the effect of letting me burn a heavier oil in my service truck tahn pump diesel and the fuel ecconomy improved about 5%. Bad news was we never managed to solve the tar problem and it clogged filters. It also coaked up engines to some degree unless you warmed the engine for extended periods up and did the monthly Italian tune up.

Doug

So from my perspective if it thins and burns great.  Heavier ends have a higher BTU count per litre than light fuels. So its reasonable to assume if what you have burns well and doesn't coke up your engine it may deliver more energy.

rcavictim

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2007, 05:23:58 AM »
Thanx for your input Doug.  It got late too fast today and I have a headache that is a killer so I guess the oil lamp test will wait until tomorrow.  Oh, it is tomorrow !
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Geno

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2007, 01:13:09 PM »
I look forward to the results of the lamp test.

I had a carbon problem which may have been caused by WMO. I was running 70%WVO, 30% WMO and about ½ the WMO was Mobil One. I heat it well. After 25 hrs. there was a light coat of carbon in the IDI chamber but the real problem was that my injector tip had so much crud the pattern was affected. I switched to 100% WVO, retarded the timing to 18° BTDC (trying to reduce a bit of a knock) and my initial inspections show a very clean IDI chamber. By tonight I’ll have a good idea what’s happening to the injector tip. If it collects crud I'll bring the injector to the neighbors shop for a pressure test.

Thanks, Geno
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:18:11 PM by Geno »

draganof

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2007, 02:24:55 AM »
Okay, i need to know what an Italian tuneup is. And no I'm not Italian.
Changfa 195 and ST10
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rcavictim

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 04:07:11 AM »
I did some research about synthetics and now that I have had a chance to experiment with this 5 gallon sample of oil I have concluded that it is most likely not synthetic, but rather just natural, highly refined heavy mineral oil.   One big clue is that it`s viscocity thins quickly as it is heated.

I have been able to run this oil straght with no thinning in my JD175 engine through the addition of a nichrome heating element wrapped around the injector that heats it to about 420F with 100 watts applied.  The injector normally operates at about 212 F once warmed by engine heat using straight diesel fuel.  The engine was started and warmed for 1/2 hour each run to operating temperature, then the injector heater was turned on and after a few minutes the fuel valve was turned to feed the heavy oil to the injection pump,  As the heavy oil replaced the diesel there was no change in loaded RPM or engine character.  There was no more smoke that on straight diesel.  Some runs lasted 9 hours.  After a run the valve was switched back to diesel and the injector heater was turned off.  The engine was always very quick and easy to start next day at 45 F.  I have run the entire 5 gallons I had through the engine and my conclusion so far is that I have found a fuel I can indeed use as is without thinning for my stationary engine with injector heat.

I did not observe any extra efficiency with this heavy oil.  Consumption rates seemed to track my findings with straight diesel.  I have discovered that my engine needs a hotter thermostat thanks to the acquisition just a few days ago of a non-contact IR thermometer.  I am presently running with a 180F thermostat (didn`t know this as the uswed unit I obtained had no clear markings).  I plan to replace this with a 195F.  Perhaps once hotter the engine will do more with this heavy fuel oil.

I am awaiting a larger sample so my experiment can continue.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

dkwflight

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 12:26:08 AM »
Hi Dragonof

In relation to my '85 mercedes diesel an "Italian" tuneup is take your car out and thrash it, flog it, drive it hard.
This is to correct city driving that has your car not running well.

In respect to my car it always runs better after a road trip.
This applies to Listeroids in that they always run better when run HOT and near full load. This has been shown to me in my 28/2
Dennis
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Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

dieselhead

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 04:01:55 AM »
Hi All,

I am a Amsoil dealer.  Most, but not all syn oil is veggy derived  base stock.  It is designed to withstand higher temps before vaporizing or carbon burning.   Your fuel line heater sound like it is working good. Can you let us know how you made it & where you bought the parts ?

                                         Thanks,  Jeff in Colorado

Doug

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 10:27:59 PM »
I'd like to add that the difference between petrol and synthetic based oils is based on what they are made of.

Synthetics are basicaly one kind of oil.

Petrol based lubricants are a blend of stuff some as good as the sythetics and some that isn't. The ratio of the more robust verses the lighter, more reactive/fragile ends defines how things burn.

Doug

rcavictim

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Results of coal oil lamp testing
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 01:01:08 AM »
OOPS.  Forgot to report on the findings of my oil lamp test.  I diluted some of my mystery oil 50-50 with pure kerosene and put it in one decorative bowl kerosene lamp with a 1 inch wide wick, and placed pure kerosene in an identical lamp. Both lamps were filled completely.  Washed both chimneys and cut their wicks back to clean and straight.  After the test got started and all looked weill with identical medium low sized flames I went in the house for an hour or so to have dinner.  When I got back to the shop the flame in the heavy oil lamp was almost out.  I discovered that this thick oil, even diluted 50-50 with kerosene is incapable of climbing a wick at about 50 F ambient.  I retrimmed the wick, soaked it in the 50-50 oil and re-lit it, this time with a radiant heater illuminating the wick holder and reservoir.  This time the heavy oil burned fine, climbing the wick.  After about four hours I noted that the oil usage was similar between both lamps, the flames looked the same, and the amount of carbon smoke buildup inside the glass chimneys was essentially identical (practically none), for both the pure kerosene lamp and the lamp with heavy oil.  I also discovered that there was virtually no detectable difference in the smell of the exhaust with the pure kerosene and the heavy oil.  It did not smoke up or smell up the room in any way moreso than a lamp running pure kerosene.   I was very pleased with the results of this test and assured with this result proceeded to try running the oil undiluted in my small JD175 engine which I discovered runs perfectly, as I mentioned with appropriate added heat on the injector.  Lots of added heat.  I also assured that the fuel line into the FI pump and the high pressure line between it and the injector were suitably warm before introducing the heavy oil to the engine.  This occurs by conducted and radiated heat from the engine once warmed up to operating temperature on straight diesel.  In my final system I propose actual line heaters to make it easier on the FI pump.

Did I mention this oil is as thick as honey at room temperature?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

MeanListerGreen

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Re: Opinions on running new synthetic oil as fuel
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2007, 06:31:42 AM »
I seem to remember that specific gravity of fuel oil should be between .85 -.90 for best results at the injector.  The flash point should be between 280 and 300 degrees.  If memory serves me correctly.
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