Author Topic: EPA ANSWERS  (Read 26604 times)

wrightkiller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile

mjn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • My Changfa Generator Project
National Hot Rod Listeroid Association is the answer
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 11:12:48 PM »
Very Interesting...
Based on reading title 40 chapter 1, section 1039.5, the following types of CI engines may be excluded from part 1039.
  • Certain Locomotive engines
  • Certain Marine engines
  • Mining Engines (subject to regulation by the Mining Safety and
    Health Administration)
  • Hobby engines 50CC displacement or less

Obviously listeroids do not fall in any of these categories.

Section 1068 has provisions for the following exemptions:
  • 1068.210    test engines
  • 1068.215    manufacturer-owned engines
  • 1068.220    display engines
  • 1068.225    national security
  • 1068.230    engines for export
  • 1068.235    engines used solely for competition
  • 1068.240    new replacement engines

All of these excemptions require you to apply to the EPA for excemption except for part 235:
Quote
Section 1068.235(b) If you modify an engine after it has been placed into service in
the United States so it will be used solely for competition, it is
exempt without request. This exemption applies only to the prohibition
in Sec. 1068.101(b)(1) and is valid only as long as the engine is used
solely for competition.


So if we want our engines to be excempt from EPA regulations, we need to start the "National Hot Rod Listeroid Association" (NHRLA).   We could conduct time trials to see which competitor could get his listeroid to go from 0 to 60 hertz in the fastest time.  Also, we could have the overall efficiency competition, or Hotater could be leading the field in the "endurance" class.

I am looking forward to the day when the NHRLA can stand alongside the "Church of Lister" and the "Listeroid Institute of Technology".

Seriously, Sec 1068.101(b)(1) noted above only applies to removal of exhaust or emissions devices, so I don't think the NHRLA will stand much of a chance against a sustained attack by the EPA.

Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 11:39:28 PM »
What defines a mining engine as different from an off road engine.
What are the rules governing the sales, and regulation of engines for us in non gassy mines in the USA

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

mjn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • My Changfa Generator Project
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2007, 01:09:37 AM »
What defines a mining engine as different from an off road engine.
What are the rules governing the sales, and regulation of engines for us in non gassy mines in the USA

To quote the entire text of the regulation:
Quote
2004 CFR title 40 Sec. 1039.5
This part does not apply to the following nonroad engines:
...
(c) Mining engines. Engines used in underground mining or in underground mining equipment and regulated by the Mining Safety and Health Administration in 30 CFR parts 7, 31, 32, 36, 56, 57, 70, and 75

I'm assuming that the Mining Safety and Health Administration has far more stringent regulations on their engines which is why the EPA is giving them a pass.

Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2007, 01:43:50 AM »
Getting warmer....

But how are the rules enforced?
What makes a standard engine suitable for mining?
What is considered suitable testing to verify that an engine meets the requirements?

Doug

I can buy a scoop tram if I want.
I can remanufacture it if used and resell it if I want.

I can plow my drive way with it ( not an easy thing to do I admit )
Or I can plant flowers in the bucket and rev the engine untill the people call the cops, but its my scoop tram.....


Let me spin this:

If you buy one of those Kawasiky Mules and order an engine from me in Canada say a Yanmar diesel clone that I sell as a mining modified engine are you braking any laws by sticking it in a buggy and never going down a ramp in mine with it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 02:06:00 AM by Doug »

binnie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2007, 03:50:09 AM »
And if we remove that sign that reads "Engine Room" from the shed door that houses the Lister & replace it with "Mine Shaft #1" and dig a pit in the back yard a little larger than the one the dog lies in, and get out the hard-hat, does that make us all miners?
Someone on this forum labled his genshed with a civic number to meet compliance with municiple ordanence! Binnie (fun food for thought)....
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2007, 07:29:05 PM »
I'm drawing you a bloody picture, think outside the box.

I work in the mining buisness and know the rules governing M424.1

Do you think this is a big market?

Its not, machinery has to be custom built and the rules take this into consideration.

The rules are designed and intended to make it easy to build and market customs machines.

However if you want to follow the EPA or CEAP act go for it.


Guy_Incognito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • Just a guy, incognito.
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 02:14:56 AM »
*shrugs*

A small catalytic exhaust purifier, positioned directly at the exhaust outlet and well insulated, would likely clean up the exhaust enough to pass emissions. Can anyone point me to the proper specs? I've an exhaust gas analyser at work and a few small diesel engines with and without purifiers there.

Something like (random google search) this page here:

http://www.dcl-inc.com/dieselparticulatefilter.cfm?lg=EN

or these:

http://www.dcl-inc.com/apppg.cfm?pg=mutileng&lg=EN

How much you're willing to spend on the unlikely chance of an EPA visit is up to you.

wrightkiller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 03:01:27 AM »
Guy Incognito:



How much you're willing to spend on your own health is up to you.    EPA or no EPA it's a very good idea..good find..
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 03:03:10 AM by wrightkiller »

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 03:13:41 AM »
Now its my turn to shrugg....

These catalysts are already in service and out there on thousands of small engines around the world in mines...

Guy Incognito, whats the Auzy limmits for emissions on diesel in the mines ( hard rock ).

Doug

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 03:16:03 AM »
in the unlikely event!!  (i am not pickin on you GI)

this seems to be the common feeling at this point in time,,, i would agree that today there is not much of a chance that the epa is going to knock on my door.

but,,, next year?  maybe not, but chances are maybe .1%

five years?  maybe a bit more lets say 1%

10 years?  who knows, but with the pace of the liberal way of thinking  it is likely to be closer to 10% chance, depending on where you live i suppose

15 years? i ain't gonna bet my lunch money on it, my bet is 100bucks right now we all will be under scrutiny, and will be called on to succumb to testing.

now for folks that are just in this as a passing hobby, or for backup emergency use, you probably don't have a care in the world, your chances of winning the
lottery are probably higher.

for those with long range plans, or are planning to build a house out in the sticks and presumably live there for over 10 years, then i think the concern over epa
compliance is damn sure a factor in any decision to go offgrid, most especially if you are miles from the nearest power line.

if i may ,,, i would suggest anyone contemplating a long life, a significant investment in a primary residence, way off grid, you might think long and hard where this epa
thing is likely to go

it is going to get really ugly between 2010 and 2015, and anyone that thinks otherwise is just refusing to see what direction things are going and how fast things are moving.

all it would take is a major economic upset in our country to see the whole "grapes of wrath" thing play out again (history repeats itself), and more folks are going
to get envolved in the offgrid movement, more folks means more demand, more demand means more suppliers, more press, more attention of lawmakers and regulators
and yes the epa!

recently there was the post re listergirl,, we all thought she was cute, had a good idea, and perhaps she will get a show. i hope not!
nothing against her, but that is just what we do not need, that being a national program with a cute girl showing the world the listeroid, how long do you
think it would take for some starving atty to launch an investigation, stir up the epa and bam,,, then there will be additional funding to regulate these engines, and
enforce the epa laws....

you don't want to believe this?
fine.. sit back and watch,, just don't come crying to me when after you have your head pulled out of the sand by the knock on the door.

there is a critical balance to everything, tip the balance and the slippery slope gets really slick.
how big of an offgrid movement will it take for lawmakers that love taxes, begin to see the loss of revenue and start to confine the movement.
we already know the utility companies don't care for home power, it cuts into their monopoly.
a few is a minor irritation for them, a few more is an itchy rash, a few more is a oozing sore, a few more than that and they go to congress to lobby against
the problem.

the government wants the populace fat, lazy, and ignorant. we are easy to control that way.

why do you think that Thoreau's "walden" and its companion book "civil disobedience" is not taught in school?

why do you think that when the federal government took over education in this country they wanted schools to quit teaching about finance, interest rates etc.?

they can control, tax and keep corporate lobby guys really happy, if they keep us connected to the grid, in debt, and ignorant.

offgrid by its very nature does not fit this "model",, a few is not much more than a novelty, but when it gets to even 1% of the populace, they will use everything in their collective power to quell the flow.

think i am wrong, read your history, it has been this way since the stone age

thoughts?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Guy_Incognito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • Just a guy, incognito.
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2007, 04:16:12 AM »
Quote
thoughts?

Buy your engine with cash and pick it up yourself.
If anyone asks when you first install it, say that you've had it in storage at a friends place for many years and have only just gotten around to picking it up and putting it in.
If anyone asks a few years down the track, say that you can't recall who you got it from, and it was bought a while ago - you can't quite recall - but it was definitely sometime around 2001.

Doug : I'm not at work at the moment, but it's a reasonably low level for CO and particulates - engine tests before and after the catalyst normally give about a 10:1 reduction for those two. I'm not sure about SO2 - it has a pretty low level these days due to ULSD here - but the NOx emissions are pretty much unchanged. I'm not back until Sunday - I'll check for certain then. And I'm still waiting for the "Official" write-up from the mines dept for that hydraulic incident the other week.... the wheels of government turn sloooowly.

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2007, 04:23:55 AM »
Bob you have a very American of looking at the world one where the goverment is not your friend and sometimes the bad guy and wants to take something from you, invade your privacy ect ect...

Maybe that true to some degree, but I can't see how 1% of the population saying screw it and moving to country and living off the grid can realy be seen as threat to the Amercian Establishment.

Stop paying your taxes and ya people will get pissed at you....

I grew up in the social responsibility era here ( I'm atracted to stores with the word Co-op in them lol ). A time when goverment was suposed to be involved in everything from health care to mega building projects for the greater good of all Canadians. I don't fear goverment I just think their a bunch of weasels that try and feed you tripe all the time and hide behind smoke screans rather than getting on with whats important and often unpopular in the nations buisness.

The whole grapes of rath thing bother me sometimes when I think about the future. But people got by then and I'm sure people will get by in the future even if the ecconomy goes to hell. We can grow way more food than we can eat, there's more trees than we can ever cut and burn, threre's coal and oil enough to last centuries even if its expensive. The doctors and trades people and engineers will still be here and scratching heads about how to keep the roofs from leaking, bellies full and health concerns at bay. Politicians will still be here although its debatable how much hot air we will need.

Systems, social order, class, infrastructure will be stressed and probably broken and people will pick up the pieces and move on.

I wouldn't suprised if we saw small factories rise form the ashes and people building GM90s and simple alternators running on waste oil and producer gas...

I bet REAL unmodifed perverted food will make a come back.

I amagine people in the new world of tommorow will worked harder, and apreciate wha they have more. And I bet they will know the neighbors.

The Mega cities may become ghost towns, big deal.

War, Fammin, desease and mass migration wil be the new reality for many living in the wrong places

Scotch the realy good kind will become scarce, Weed the realy good smoking kind will become common.

I'm not going to worry about any more, just prepare a game plan and who knows maybe I will be the guy who does the QC at the little Petteroid/GM90/pump/electric works ( doing the alternator bit I guess )

Doug

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 05:05:49 AM »
Doug:

please don't misunderstand me, the world as we know it is not going to come to an end, but

a correction is long overdue :)

and yes as an american i by nature am a bit on the independant side.

and no i don't like or trust government.
their function is to provide for national defense and perhaps a handful of other functions

the problem as i see it is congress and all the lobby guys, all trying to make a name for themselves, and legislating all sorts of stuff that
infringe on ones freedom in one way or another.

but i digress :)

you also must consider the lawyers in this country, there are simply too damn many of them and they are hungry for not only money
but power, press and position.

pick a hundred of them, an i will bet another c note that 5 of them actively look for stuff like these listeroids to make hay about.

add to that the whole tree hugger, politically correct, ultra liberal group, that would have us belief a child=bug, both having equal right to clean air.

heaven help us all if one of the latter come upon a dead sparrow outside a listeroid shack. 

perhaps canada is different in many regards, but i used to know my country, and it is rapidly becoming something i don't recognize.

no the world is not coming to an end, just going to be different, at least my world is going to be different.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Geno

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
    • View Profile
Re: EPA ANSWERS
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 01:46:29 PM »
I’d have to say I fall somewhere in between Bob and Doug. I believe the future will shape what governments and other entities will do. Under the right circumstances the govt. can and will come down hard on miniscule environmental “concerns” I live in the Adirondack Park, 6 million acres of public and private land.

Few people want this place to turn into a huge, uncontrolled, development. I don’t. Few people want to see large, private tracts of land clear cut for short term profits. I don’t.
The laws concerning what can and cannot be done on private land are numerous and can be so restrictive they become cost prohibitive for the average person.
For the most part these laws are pushed through by people who live downstate, in the city or they have enough $ to pay. These people often couldn’t care less if the little guy who actually lives here can make it or not. The APA “Adirondack Park Agency” has the enforcement on the ground right now doing some of the things Bob’s talking about. I have some friends in the Forest Service. They know what it takes to protect these tracts of land and for the most part have a very jaded view of the APA and the LOUD, rich, environmental organizations.

What do average, locals do? They fly under the radar, put up gates, posted signs, play ignorant, and try to keep a low profile.

Some of the things Bob’s talking about are already here, to an extent, in some places.

Thanks, Geno